Another endgame computers cannot seems to grasp

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderator: Ras

Robert Flesher
Posts: 1287
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:06 am

Another endgame computers cannot seems to grasp

Post by Robert Flesher »

When I look at this position I see a draw. Alot of engines are clueless. I won't say who :)

[d] 4k3/R7/8/p6r/2Kp4/1P6/P7/8 w - - 0 0
Top
Robert Flesher
Posts: 1287
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:06 am

Re: Another endgame computers cannot seems to grasp

Post by Robert Flesher »

cannot *seem* to grasp...... fingers seem to be faster than the grammar

:)
Top
Dann Corbit
Posts: 12792
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Re: Another endgame computers cannot seems to grasp

Post by Dann Corbit »

[d]4k3/R7/8/p6r/2Kp4/1P6/P7/8 w - -

It's pretty obvious (even from the static score below) that Kxd4 draws.

What about a4 (which seems natural to me, since it gives white all the options)?

Code: Select all

Analysis from C:\test\draw2.epd   
9/11/2009 8:40:55 PM Level: 32767 Seconds
Analyzing engine: Rybka 3

1)                      
    Avoid move: 
    Best move (Rybka 3): Kc4xd4
    Not found in: 9:06:07
      2	00:00	         334	342.016	+1.25	Kc4xd4
      3	00:00	         489	500.736	+1.21	Kc4xd4
      4	00:00	         797	816.128	+1.25	Kc4xd4
      5	00:00	       1.260	80.640	+1.18	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8
      6	00:00	       1.919	122.816	+1.19	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4
      7	00:00	       3.566	228.224	+1.10	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Rh5e5
      8	00:00	       6.650	212.800	+1.11	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Rh5g5 a2a3
      9	00:00	       8.793	142.921	+1.11	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Rh5g5 a2a3 Rg5f5 b3b4
     10	00:00	       9.496	123.087	+1.11	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Rh5g5 a2a3 Rg5f5 b3b4
     11	00:00	      15.265	110.860	+1.08	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Rh5g5 a2a3 Rg5f5 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4 Rf5f4+
     12	00:00	      19.224	96.972	+1.08	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Rh5g5 a2a3 Rg5f5 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4 Rf5f4+ Kc4c5
     13	00:00	      25.053	91.296	+1.08	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Rh5g5 a2a3 Rg5f5 Kc4d4 Rf5f3 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4 Rf3f4+
     14	00:00	      47.209	99.880	+1.12	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Rh5g5 a2a3 Rg5f5 Ra7g7 Rf5e5 b3b4 Kd8c8 b4xa5 Re5xa5 Kc4b4
     15	00:01	      74.043	99.111	+1.10	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Rh5g5 a2a3 Kd8c8 Ra7f7 Kc8b8 Rf7e7 Rg5g3 Re7e5 a5a4
     16	00:01	      91.954	83.773	+1.11	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Rh5g5 a2a3 Kd8c8 Ra7f7 Kc8b8 Rf7h7 Rg5g4+ Kc4b5 Rg4g3 Kb5a4 Rg3g5
     17	00:01	     105.894	77.178	+1.11	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Rh5g5 a2a3 Kd8c8 Ra7f7 Kc8b8 Rf7h7 Rg5g4+ Kc4b5 Rg4g3 Kb5a4 Rg3g5
     18	00:03	     202.284	57.714	+1.15	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Kd8c8 Ra7e7 Rh5g5 a2a3 Rg5g3 Re7e5 a5a4 b3xa4 Rg3xa3 Kc4b4 Ra3g3 Re5e7 Rg3g4+ Kb4b5 Rg4g5+
     19	00:04	     219.377	52.931	+1.26	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Kd8c8 a2a3 Rh5g5 Ra7h7 Rg5g3 Rh7h5 a5a4 b3xa4 Rg3xa3 Kc4b5 Ra3b3+ Kb5c6 Rb3c3+ Rh5c5 Rc3a3 a4a5 Kc8b8 Kc6b6 Ra3b3+ Rc5b5
     20	00:06	     260.518	45.593	+1.31	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Kd8c8 a2a3 Rh5g5 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4 Rg5g4+ Kc4c5 Rg4g5+ Kc5b6 Rg5g6+ Kb6a5 Rg6g3 Ra7h7 Rg3a3+ Ka5b6 Ra3a2 b4b5 Ra2b2 Rh7c7+ Kc8b8 Rc7e7
     21	00:08	     340.839	43.692	+1.31	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Kd8c8 a2a3 Rh5g5 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4 Rg5g4+ Kc4c5 Rg4g5+ Kc5b6 Rg5g6+ Kb6a5 Rg6g3 Ra7h7 Rg3a3+ Ka5b6 Ra3a2 b4b5 Ra2b2 Rh7c7+ Kc8b8 Rc7e7
     22	00:12	     539.113	43.633	+1.31	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Kd8c8 a2a3 Rh5g5 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4 Rg5g4+ Kc4c5 Rg4g5+ Kc5b6 Rg5g6+ Kb6a5 Rg6g3 Ra7h7 Rg3a3+ Ka5b6 Ra3a2 b4b5
     23	00:40	   3.207.621	81.449	+1.46	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Kd8c8 a2a3 Rh5g5 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4 Rg5g4+ Kc4c5 Rg4g5+ Kc5b6 Rg5g6+ Kb6a5 Rg6g3 Ra7h7 Rg3a3+ Ka5b6
     24	00:40	   3.207.634	81.449	+1.46	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Kd8c8 a2a3 Rh5g5 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4 Rg5g4+ Kc4c5 Rg4g5+ Kc5b6 Rg5g6+ Kb6a5 Rg6g3 Ra7h7 Rg3a3+ Ka5b6
     25	00:46	   3.461.078	77.063	+1.46	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Kd8c8 a2a3 Rh5g5 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4 Rg5g4+ Kc4c5 Rg4g5+ Kc5b6 Rg5g6+ Kb6a5 Rg6g3 Ra7h7 Rg3a3+ Ka5b6
     26	01:01	   3.949.166	66.195	+1.46	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Kd8c8 a2a3 Rh5g5 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4 Rg5g4+ Kc4c5 Rg4g5+ Kc5b6 Rg5g6+ Kb6a5 Rg6g3 Ra7h7 Rg3a3+ Ka5b6
     27	01:30	   6.597.193	74.649	+1.46	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Kd8c8 a2a3 Rh5g5 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4 Rg5g4+ Kc4c5 Rg4g5+ Kc5b6 Rg5g6+ Kb6a5 Rg6g3 Ra7h7 Rg3a3+ Ka5b6
     28	02:12	  11.269.491	87.459	+1.46	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Kd8c8 a2a3 Rh5g5 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4 Rg5g4+ Kc4c5 Rg4g5+ Kc5b6 Rg5g6+ Kb6a5 Rg6g3 Ra7h7 Rg3a3+ Ka5b6
     29	02:56	  16.401.610	95.351	+1.46	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Kd8c8 a2a3 Rh5g5 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4 Rg5g4+ Kc4c5 Rg4g5+ Kc5b6 Rg5g6+ Kb6a5 Rg6g3 Ra7h7 Rg3a3+ Ka5b6
     30	04:37	  27.594.844	101.875	+1.46	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Kd8c8 a2a3 Rh5g5 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4 Rg5g4+ Kc4c5 Rg4g5+ Kc5b6 Rg5g6+ Kb6a5 Rg6g3 Ra7h7 Rg3a3+ Ka5b6
     31	07:07	  45.065.242	108.015	+1.46	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Kd8c8 a2a3 Rh5g5 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4 Rg5g4+ Kc4c5 Rg4g5+ Kc5b6 Rg5g6+ Kb6a5 Rg6g3 Ra7h7 Rg3f3 b4b5 Rf3f6 Rh7e7
     32	11:26	  74.774.522	111.644	+1.46	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Kd8c8 a2a3 Rh5g5 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4 Rg5g4+ Kc4c5 Rg4g5+ Kc5b6 Rg5g6+ Kb6a5 Rg6g3 Ra7h7 Rg3f3 b4b5 Rf3f6 Rh7e7
     33	16:40	 107.861.988	110.473	+1.46	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Kd8c8 a2a3 Rh5g5 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4 Rg5g4+ Kc4c5 Rg4g5+ Kc5b6 Rg5g6+ Kb6a5 Rg6g3 Ra7h7 Rg3f3 b4b5 Rf3f6 Rh7e7
     34	29:09	 204.146.012	119.521	+1.46	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Kd8c8 a2a3 Rh5g5 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4 Rg5g4+ Kc4c5 Rg4g5+ Kc5b6 Rg5g6+ Kb6a5 Rg6g3 Ra7h7 Kc8b8 b4b5
     35	56:55	 416.095.212	124.758	+1.46	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Kd8c8 a2a3 Rh5g5 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4 Rg5g4+ Kc4c5 Rg4g5+ Kc5b6 Rg5g6+ Kb6a5 Rg6g3 Ra7h7 Kc8b8 b4b5
     36	1:43:34	 843.760.323	139.049	+1.46	Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Kd4c4 Kd8c8 a2a3 Rh5g5 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4 Rg5g4+ Kc4c5 Rg4g5+ Kc5b6 Rg5g6+ Kb6a5 Rg6g3 Ra7h7 Kc8b8 b4b5 Rg3g6 Rh7f7
   9/11/2009 10:28:29 PM, Time for this analysis: 01:47:30, Rated time: 9:06:07

0 of 1 matching moves
9/11/2009 10:28:30 PM, Total time: 1:47:34 AM
Rated time: 9:06:07 = 32767 Seconds
Top
Robert Flesher
Posts: 1287
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:06 am

Re: Another endgame computers cannot seems to grasp

Post by Robert Flesher »

This is again my point. Rybka shows a +1.40 or greater score which is incorrect. Therefore, it will often head to an ending like this assuming it is winning. The position involves understanding of distance opposition and the plan is quite simple. Black can always trade his A pawn for the wihite B pawn which secures a draw. However, getting Rybka to a position like this is another story, not one I can share. I am usually crushed in under 40 moves and unlike other engines , I have no idea why.
Top
BubbaTough
Posts: 1154
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:18 am

Re: Another endgame computers cannot seems to grasp

Post by BubbaTough »

This position is an obvious draw to LearningLemming.

FEN: 4k3/6R1/8/p6r/2Kp4/1P6/P7/8 b - - 1 1

Lemming_TEST43:
10 00:00 107.872 153.000 +0.04 a2a3 Ke8d8 b3b4 a5xb4 a3xb4
11 00:01 170.091 172.000 +0.04 a2a3 Ke8d8 Kc4xd4 Kd8c8 Ra7f7 Rh5h4+ Kd4c3 Rh4h3+ Kc3c4 Rh3h5 Rf7g7 Rh5h4+ Kc4b5 Rh4h5+ Kb5b6 Kc8b8 b3b4
12 00:01 254.302 208.000 +0.04 a2a3 Ke8d8 Kc4xd4 Kd8c8 Ra7f7 Rh5h4+ Kd4c3 Rh4h3+ Kc3c4 Rh3h5 Rf7g7 Rh5h4+ Kc4b5 Rh4h5+ Kb5b6 Kc8b8 b3b4
13 00:01 386.960 252.000 +0.04 a2a3 Ke8d8 Kc4xd4 Kd8c8 Ra7f7 Rh5h4+ Kd4c3 Rh4h3+ Kc3c4 Rh3h5 Rf7g7 Rh5h4+ Kc4b5 Rh4h5+ Kb5b6 Kc8b8 b3b4
14 00:02 686.657 354.000 +0.04 a2a3 Ke8d8 Kc4xd4 Kd8c8 Ra7f7 Rh5h4+ Kd4c3 Rh4h3+ Kc3c4 Rh3h5 Rf7g7 Rh5h4+ Kc4b5 Rh4h5+ Kb5b6
15 00:04 1.942.018 474.000 +0.05 a2a3 Ke8d8 Ra7f7 Rh5h4 a3a4 d4d3+ Kc4xd3 Rh4h5 b3b4 a5xb4
15 00:04 2.580.685 556.000 +0.05 Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Ra7f7 Kd8c8 Kd4c4 Rh5h2 Rf7f8+ Kc8b7 Kc4b5 Rh2h5+ Kb5a4 Kb7c6 Rf8f6+ Kc6b7 b3b4 a5xb4
16 00:05 3.360.396 632.000 +0.05 Kc4xd4 Ke8d8 Ra7f7 Kd8c8 Kd4c4 Rh5h2 a2a4 Rh2h5 b3b4 Rh5h4+ Kc4b5 Rh4h5+ Kb5a6
16 00:06 4.799.482 771.000 +0.05 a2a3 Ke8d8 Ra7f7 d4d3 Kc4xd3 a5a4
16 00:11 10.518.297 938.000 +0.06 Ra7g7 Ke8d8 Rg7g4 d4d3 Kc4xd3 Kd8c7 a2a3

-Sam
Top
BubbaTough
Posts: 1154
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:18 am

Re: Another endgame computers cannot seems to grasp

Post by BubbaTough »

I expect LearningLemming is not the only engine with this type of knowledge in it, but it is certainly revealing about the design philosophy of certain engines written by strong chess players that they chose to sacrifice this type of knowledge inclusion in favor of search simplicity and grace. I have trouble doing that myself, because it offends me when my engine can't see that positions like this are drawn :).

-Sam
Top

Return to “Computer Chess Club: General Topics”