To be or not to be.............a clone in the 3-rd millenium

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

Hello Sirs !
Is this ( I don't know how to name this young creature-sorry ) a clone or not ?

Well, it can be said for 99.9% certaintity that this Ippolit thing is illegal clone. You can easily see from the source that most of the code is decompiled. What else could it be than illegal clone? Well, there is 0.1% chance that somewhere in the Russia lives true computer chess expert, and this is a humoristic way to release a new super-strong open source engine.

Unfortunately, now all computer chess programmers who want to compete for reaching the top are forced to carefully examine the source and re-implement new ideas found there. I've just scratched the surface, but already I can see that the code is full of very interesting and fresh ideas.

I am curious, If you believe with 99.9% certainty that it is an illegal clone, why are you now reading the source code?

And if you are 99.9% certain, could you please provide the evidence?

Imagine I was to call member X here a child molester, followed by the words "I think he is a child molester because I have heard rumours from other members, and he looks suspicious in his avatar" If others then joined in and said things like, "yes I agree, I am 99.9% sure he is too, it is just a hunch though" Is this acceptable? NO, of course not, it is an exaggerated example for sure, but the principle is the same. A cloning accusation without evidence is nothing more than a personal attack.

Reading your post Anton,something suddenly crossed my mind....

Remember when Shredder was dominating the computer chess scene all these years,being the top notch other programs trying to catch up with
Well,when Shredder was surpassed I don't remember one damn moment his author accusing anyone or anything out there of being a clone or even worse....to be a clone of Shredder....

Don't get me wrong,I am not taking sides,I am not accusing anyone of anything,I don't have any supporting evidence,but....isn't this the second time,when something comes out of the blue with the possibilty to snatch Rybka from it's throne,to be fingered out as a clone

I mean come on,I sick'n tired to hear the same phrase again and again:
Yes,Vas said it's a clone of Rybka....period!!

Sorry,I'm not buying this $hit anymore....

I want the case to be cleared out....yes,it's a clone of Rybka,show us what you got....fragment's from Rybka's source code can be sent to trusted and honest programmers to make their verdict,that's how I see the case solved radically....

If it's a clone of Rybka,a stolen source code,a reversed engineered project,I personaly will support all the Rybka team with all I've got....

But what if it's not?I mean Rybka is not a God to warship blindly....we're not followers of some kind of sect,are we

Someday,a beautiful morning will come and a new chess eninge will surpass Rybka....nothing lasts forever,right

Just my 2 cents,
Dr.D

[Anton]

Hello Sirs !
Is this ( I don't know how to name this young creature-sorry ) a clone or not ?

Well, it can be said for 99.9% certaintity that this Ippolit thing is illegal clone. You can easily see from the source that most of the code is decompiled. What else could it be than illegal clone? Well, there is 0.1% chance that somewhere in the Russia lives true computer chess expert, and this is a humoristic way to release a new super-strong open source engine.

Unfortunately, now all computer chess programmers who want to compete for reaching the top are forced to carefully examine the source and re-implement new ideas found there. I've just scratched the surface, but already I can see that the code is full of very interesting and fresh ideas.

I am curious, If you believe with 99.9% certainty that it is an illegal clone, why are you now reading the source code?

And if you are 99.9% certain, could you please provide the evidence?

Imagine I was to call member X here a child molester, followed by the words "I think he is a child molester because I have heard rumours from other members, and he looks suspicious in his avatar" If others then joined in and said things like, "yes I agree, I am 99.9% sure he is too, it is just a hunch though" Is this acceptable? NO, of course not, it is an exaggerated example for sure, but the principle is the same. A cloning accusation without evidence is nothing more than a personal attack.

Reading your post Anton,something suddenly crossed my mind....

Remember when Shredder was dominating the computer chess scene all these years,being the top notch other programs trying to catch up with
Well,when Shredder was surpassed I don't remember one damn moment his author accusing anyone or anything out there of being a clone or even worse....to be a clone of Shredder....

Don't get me wrong,I am not taking sides,I am not accusing anyone of anything,I don't have any supporting evidence,but....isn't this the second time,when something comes out of the blue with the possibilty to snatch Rybka from it's throne,to be fingered out as a clone

I mean come on,I sick'n tired to hear the same phrase again and again:
Yes,Vas said it's a clone of Rybka....period!!

Sorry,I'm not buying this $hit anymore....

I want the case to be cleared out....yes,it's a clone of Rybka,show us what you got....fragment's from Rybka's source code can be sent to trusted and honest programmers to make their verdict,that's how I see the case solved radically....

If it's a clone of Rybka,a stolen source code,a reversed engineered project,I personaly will support all the Rybka team with all I've got....

But what if it's not?I mean Rybka is not a God to warship blindly....we're not followers of some kind of sect,are we

Someday,a beautiful morning will come and a new chess eninge will surpass Rybka....nothing lasts forever,right

Just my 2 cents,
Dr.D

I really don't know enough about reverse engineering to comment on the status of RobboLito, and even if the clone brigade are correct this time, there have been many false accusations in the past, and it will happen again in the future, _until_ evidence is required when accusing another of a criminal act.

And what about the talented programmers who release there new strong engine freely to the world, only to get called a cheat by members in CCC, are they going to want to share their ideas here? NO.

[bob]

Hi Silvian,
great stuff but here is the problem;

"the moderation team has made its position known on this early on when the first thread regarding the engine reared its head"

What we have here is modern day "intellectual " inquisition where few people decide for the entire chess community what we can or can not use.Since some of them are so fond of bashing old commies from Russia they can not see that they have reaches or even surpassed the intellectual terror they are so ready to criticize .
From their comments one can see that they have the engine in different versions but this is only for them.The light stays with them but the masses have to live in the dark.
Well, the engine is still circulating and people are using and sharing it.So that they can no stop.
I am surprised in that quote they did not say "the engine reared its ugly head".Whatever monster they think this engine is after seeing it destroying Rybka and Shredder I thought it was beautiful.
So far how many people have analyzed and dissected this engine and they could not say for sure is it clone or not.But the "moderation team" has decided:guilty without proving anything.And the rest has to accept they verdict.
According to them if somebody would like to produce new car he would have to reinvent the wheels again.And than they would judge if this wheel is original or not.Sorry ,the wheels have been invented and are in use.If one would that way judge the cars they would see clone after clone rolling on the streets.
Instead to greet new strong engine as a new baby that has broken some new barriers in strength they want to hide it from the world.
There is no way that one can invent new chess engine without using the available knowledge. The author has to say what he has used and give due credit where it is due but I find it strange to reject a priory something new that can open new ways of making chess engines even stronger .
If guilty verdict did not come from the majority of the chess community I would think that some self declared moderation team should not make decisions that would prevent chess community from using new chess engines in a situation that is like now with this new engine.That should be the first principle of democracy and also that you are innocent until proven guilty and had you day in the court of justice and not the judgment buy the inquisition ,sorry, moderation team.
In my opinion after this fiasco I would like to see new people in the moderation team who would support new engine development and accept that no new engine can be written from scratch and see that the rules are followed by the authors and avoid mindless nitpicking of every new engines that comes and waiving the stamp of clone or rejected.
I don't know if I am part of silent majority but in this situation I believe that the majority of the people should decide the faith of this engine.
This should be put to vote and whatever people decide should be accepted by all.
And if the people vote for the engine it should be available for all to download and use.

If you are not happy with the current moderation policies here, I invite you do go somewhere else where things are more in agreement with your views. Such as perhaps web sites in China where software piracy is rampant and not considered a criminal act by the government.

Here, we do not condone piracy. We allow the discussions to continue since clones are on the topic of computer chess. We will not allow links to clones or stolen software to remain because we do not support software piracy in any form.

For those that object to this, again, feel free to find another place to hang out. However, after a threshold is reached, our tolerance for complaints about moderation policies will also exact a response and force you to go somewhere else.

Get off the subject of clones unless you have technical information to contribute.

Calling Ippolit a "clone" is not an accurate language usage, and you as a university professor, and one of the most respected chess engines programers, know it, for sure.

It has been called a clone by those that have looked. It is clearly suspicious enough to warrant removing links to the code until someone knows what is going on for certain. There are times when it is better to err on the conservative side. Discussions about the program and what it is or is not is just fine. But not the links to the program itself until it becomes clear whether it is a legal program or an illegal copy.

[solis]

My dear professor Hyat,
I came to USA from the former socialist country where many people have been sent to jail on suspicion of being counterrevolutionary elements.The state was doing this to err on the conservative side.Many people did not survive this kind of "fatherly" treatment. The State did not want to have those people spreading any kind of ideas that were different from the official thinking.Justice system was irrelevant.
One of the first things I learned in this country that any person is innocent until proven guilty and that 99 people would be let go not to send one innocent person to prison or to be unjustly sentenced.
You have turned this logic upside down and I would like to see the real explanation to the chess community you are trying to protect from all those heretics who are coming with new ideas and engines and disturbing the peace you are trying so much to protect.
It should be interesting to hear.

[gerold]

My dear professor Hyat,
I came to USA from the former socialist country where many people have been sent to jail on suspicion of being counterrevolutionary elements.The state was doing this to err on the conservative side.Many people did not survive this kind of "fatherly" treatment. The State did not want to have those people spreading any kind of ideas that were different from the official thinking.Justice system was irrelevant.
One of the first things I learned in this country that any person is innocent until proven guilty and that 99 people would be let go not to send one innocent person to prison or to be unjustly sentenced.
You have turned this logic upside down and I would like to see the real explanation to the chess community you are trying to protect from all those heretics who are coming with new ideas and engines and disturbing the peace you are trying so much to protect.
It should be interesting to hear.

No big deal here. Anyone can go and download it and
run it. What is the problem.

Best.

Gerold.

CCC. has a charter for a very good reason.

[bob]

My dear professor Hyat,
I came to USA from the former socialist country where many people have been sent to jail on suspicion of being counterrevolutionary elements.The state was doing this to err on the conservative side.Many people did not survive this kind of "fatherly" treatment. The State did not want to have those people spreading any kind of ideas that were different from the official thinking.Justice system was irrelevant.
One of the first things I learned in this country that any person is innocent until proven guilty and that 99 people would be let go not to send one innocent person to prison or to be unjustly sentenced.
You have turned this logic upside down and I would like to see the real explanation to the chess community you are trying to protect from all those heretics who are coming with new ideas and engines and disturbing the peace you are trying so much to protect.
It should be interesting to hear.

There is no dark motive at play here. Vas has claimed that IPPOLIT contained large pieces of his code. If so, it is an illegal copy since anyone that writes a chess program is, by default, producing a copyrighted product. You are free to discuss the ramifications of that here at length, and offer proof, or reject/disprove offered proof. But we do not allow links to what appears to be pirated software. It really is that simple. It is not about innocent until proven guilty, it is not about socialism, it is not about thought police. It is simply about common sense. Want to distribute pirated software? Do it somewhere else. Want to discuss the issues here, feel free. That's all we have said on the topic. And I am not going to continue in the debate. If enough don't like this policy, and want to amend the charter and also elect new moderators, that's fine by me.

[Christopher Conkie]

My dear professor Hyat,
I came to USA from the former socialist country where many people have been sent to jail on suspicion of being counterrevolutionary elements.The state was doing this to err on the conservative side.Many people did not survive this kind of "fatherly" treatment. The State did not want to have those people spreading any kind of ideas that were different from the official thinking.Justice system was irrelevant.
One of the first things I learned in this country that any person is innocent until proven guilty and that 99 people would be let go not to send one innocent person to prison or to be unjustly sentenced.
You have turned this logic upside down and I would like to see the real explanation to the chess community you are trying to protect from all those heretics who are coming with new ideas and engines and disturbing the peace you are trying so much to protect.
It should be interesting to hear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3pHN7E6ijQ

http://www.lyricsdownload.com/heaven-17 ... yrics.html

Christopher (in CThinkersF mode)