Rolf wrote:bob wrote:Rolf wrote:Thoughts?
I agree with a single idea in your post and that is the fact that commercials like Fritz, Junior, Shredder etc. never were reverse engineered like Rybka. The only reason for that fact is that all the above have money behind them (ChessBase money) while Rybka is such a pain in the ___ of the antique former winner guys that it's blew their minds and made them believe that Rybka must be a cheat (from Fruit) because how otherwise someone could have found something they all had missed for years.
Tiger author Theron once wrote here in CCC that if he would forget about morals and would steal from Fruit then he could achive the same what Rajlich had achieved, but he, Theron, would have morals... When that had appeared I was outraged because of the unproven dirt. It has never been proven since then and Vas never was taken to court for anything.
Again, also then Theron never was interested in Fritz or Junior. So you ask a bit for too much if you claim now that therefore also your I____ should remain alive.
The reason why decent people in the community condemned these clones,
1) Vas is a integer character who never lied or pretended sonmething false
2) The evil of such inventions like Strelka or others is NOT only the clone stuff, it's that then this was published open in public so that more and more the secrets of Vas code became known. NB that the code of Fritz and others never was mistreated this way. You criticise it but the reason is money.
3) The talents who mistreat Rybka all along do not plan to have their own product in championships or tests, the sole purpose is the mistreatment of Rybka and its author. Unfortunately a lot of famous guys in CCC have helped that sort of campaign and I was among a few who criticised that from its beginning.
After 5 years to me it seems as if Rajlich is a saint because he's smart, but others are also smart, but he has the morals, the ethics and the philosophy to take such negative incidents with the patience of a wise monk who doesnt want to let himself be disturbed in pursuing his own path.
A couple of questions. Why do you need to bring Theron's name into the discussion? He has not participated in this thread.
What you did and Zach Wegner, that was science in trying to understand what Rybka did. Such approach is ok for scientists. But what people here continue to do, see Nick but also many others, that is using terms like lying, cheating etc. against Vas and Rybkat. And such isnt ok. Now the one who first started the hate campaign against Vas was Theron. No doubt about it. Therefore I mentioned him. Not to rehash something. If you order that this isnt allowed to mention then this is ok. But why others are allowed to insult Vasik with his Rybka.
It would be a real progress if you could make a statement that what appeared with Rybka1 beta, that was a free version to chosen email friends who registered and asked for it. That was a pilot study so to speak and that is allowed.
We have been through that discussion. It is _not_ allowed. Fruit is GPL. _ANY_ program derived from fruit is therefore GPL. The source for Rybka 1 was never released, in direct violation of the GPL. And it is almost a guaranteed certainty that code from Rybka 1 was retained for Rybka 2 and Rybka 3. Crafty is 15 years old. It has _never_ been rewritten from the ground up. That is a horribly inefficient way of doing software development. I doubt _anybody_ writes a program like that, except perhaps for the first version or two for a real beginner.
So, something wrong _was_ done. I've never seen Vas own up to doing this. Which is certainly not exactly honest, to say the least.
Later Vasik stated exactly whom he relied on, learned from, also Crafty. Vas wasnt amoral when he learned from Fruit. He didnt take code from Fruit for the chess relevant parts. It was from just technical stuff as I understood - which is done by everybody. When Vas sold his versions, there was nothing from Fruit at all.
Unfortunately, you do not get to redefine the GPL document. It does not say that you can copy everything but "chess relevant parts". It does say you can not copy _anything_ unless the new work is also released under the GPL. You say there is nothing from fruit left. I do not believe that for a minute. I am on version 23 of crafty. There is +still+ code from version 1 present. So trying to claim that Rybka 2 has nothing from Rybka 1 is simply baloney.
BTW nobody else learned from Fruit and made a software as strong as Rybka what proves that Vasik is the best of all.
One can be both "the best of all" and a plagiarist at the same time.
Why do you want to continue to praise Vas as a victimized saint? There is no doubt that parts of fruit are in Rybka 1. Absolutely no doubt. Whether they remain in R2 and R3 (or even R4) is a guess, but not for R1. And that is certainly something that is not considered reasonable.
What parts do you mean? What do you mean with victimized saint? For me he's a saint because his temper is so calm and controlled and positive. He doesnt insult other people even if they insulted him. That's already something. Victimized means what? He's unfairlay prosecuted with the first insult that he acted without a moral (Theron). He's no victimized something, he's doing quite well and he's not suffering, he's rather ignoring the hate. Other than myself he thinks that he should ignore something that he cannot change. I myself still believe in the possible change in people after they read some good arguments.
Facts are facts. There is nothing more that can be added.
Note that nobody ever dared to take Vas to court which proves that he didnt do something wrong. Shouldnt we therefore stop the hate campaign in CCC?
"proves"??? There is absolutely no doubt that code was copied from Fruit. And I mean _absolutely_ no doubt. I have no personal interest in taking him to court. I actually could not do so as I am not a part of the FSF that holds the GPL license for Fruit. But not challenging him in court proves exactly nothing, except that no one is that interested to spend the amount of money necessary, give up the amount of time necessary, for no tangible gain.
How about contributing positive stuff, or else not contributing at all, so that our moderator email doesn't get choked up with complaints about your posts? You rehash either the rybka/fruit issue, or the deep blue issue, over and over and over. Rybka/Fruit genie is out of the bottle. Time to move on. Deep Blue hasn't existed for 12 years now. Time to move on there as well. Your continual complaints are not going to change either of those situations.
Couldnt we join in agreement over letting undiscussed the many evil deeds overall? My positive science contribution is to point out that DB2 vs Kasparov is not allowed while Vasik apparently is allowed to be insulted as a cheat. But it wasnt a cheat as far as I could understand.
Your lack of understanding of a critical issue does not make it worthy of being called an exception to a quite explicit rule, that laid out in the GPL. The DB guys did not violate _any_ contract. In fact, they explicitly followed the contract between them and Kasparov to the exact letter as spelled out. The Rybka/Fruit situation did _not_ follow the GPL. There is no similarities whatsoever.
Please do not persecute people who just defend those who are unfairly attacked like Vas if you tolerate that clone creators are writing here like Strelka author Osipov.
I neither tolerate, accept, nor ostracise cloners. They are what they are, and if they want to continue doing it, more power to 'em. They won't get to play in significant events, which is all I care about.
You criticise me but isnt he a real threat against our community?
No more than people who plagiarize other written works are a threat to our community.
It would be really nice to see that academic seniors like me are treated with respect. I didnt open the Rybka is cheating threads. I came by to give some comments. Because you dont protect the actual champion, you are only protecting your friends of the DB2 IBM team against Kasparov, another human champion. That is the problem.
There is no problem there. Kasparov signed a contract that he wish he had not. I've signed contracts I wish I had not. I lived with them, as did he.
