one final thread on robolito....in all fairness

[Matthias Gemuh]

There is far more in Russia that you won't find any reference to on the web.
Matthias.

True, no doubt. But if there's no information about ь and no ь compiler or translator available to us, then we're back where we started. The ь code posted on their site obviously doesn't explain ippolit.c on its own, but if more information becomes available maybe things will be clearer. Personally, I'm doubtful that there really is such a thing as the ь programming language, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

All my answers to you have been to shed light on the false impression in your first post:

Code: Select all

If you want to determine whether or not it's a clone, the obvious thing to do is look at the code

... and the proof of decompilation.

My point all along is that though there was decompilation, there is no proof of cloning (especially of Rybka).
.. and failure to even mention "b" is bias (even if it is not clear whether the source code allegedly in that language is genuine).
"b" is an important part of the puzzle, till disproven.

Matthias.

[Aaron Becker]

All my answers to you have been to shed light on the false impression in your first post:

Code: Select all

If you want to determine whether or not it's a clone, the obvious thing to do is look at the code

... and the proof of decompilation.

My point all along is that though there was decompilation, there is no proof of cloning (especially of Rybka).
.. and failure to even mention "b" is bias (even if it is not clear whether the source code allegedly in that language is genuine).
"b" is an important part of the puzzle, till disproven.

Matthias.

I agree, "b" is the most interesting part of the puzzle. I'm really hoping that I can get my hands on a "b" compiler and that the "b" code on Ippolit's website will compile down to Ippolit-quality search routines. If so, it's a really great innovation in computer chess, way bigger than Ippolit itself. The ability to write such effective code so briefly would be great.

But, I find myself doubting this scenario. If "b" is real, then the authors actions don't make any sense to me. Why give us so little information about "b", while publishing the entire translated C code? Why not publish the entire "b" source?

Clearly it's not to protect "b" and keep it secret, because development seems to be proceeding on Robbolito in C, with "b" being abandoned. On this site, "b" is described as "more the hassle than the value". How can that be true based on what we've seen? None of this really makes any sense to me.

That's why I conclude that a "b" compiler probably doesn't exist. Maybe there is other information available that would be more convincing, but right now I don't see the evidence. I'm not interested in proving that Ippolito is a clone of any particular engine, and I'm not interested in defending Rybka. This is just an interesting situation, and I would like to understand it better.

[Matthias Gemuh]

But, I find myself doubting this scenario. If "b" is real, then the authors actions don't make any sense to me. Why give us so little information about "b", while publishing the entire translated C code? Why not publish the entire "b" source?

Clearly it's not to protect "b" and keep it secret, because development seems to be proceeding on Robbolito in C, with "b" being abandoned.

The "b" seems to be interested only in having his creation kick butt on his russian platform.
The translation and publishing is being done by other people.

Maybe Medvedev (the author of Greko) knows more about "b".

Matthias.

[slobo]

Graham Banks got the point somewhere else:

Every time a strong new engine appears, these are invariably the first words
that are uttered. "Is it a clone?"
Not getting at you personally Eduard as you're just the first to ask on this
occasion.
Must be really sickening to the program author though. You'd expect some praise
I would think for developing such a monster.

Regards, Graham.

There is a big difference this time.
First of all, there is no genuinely named author (unsurprising that a thief doesn't want to give his real name though).
Secondly the Rybka author indicated early that the code posted was stolen code (before any working compiles were put out, from memory).

It's amazing that you have such a large range of my quotes or posts from long ago at your fingertips and so readily. Who's been providing them for you?

Cheers,
Graham.

You ask questions!

The whole anti-Vas campaign stinks after this same strong smoke. Those who allegedly programmed (= robbed) remain anonymous. Those who argue here in public are anonymous. But behind all that there are people who are real but they want to remain completely invisible. Why? Because they know that the whole campaign stinks.

Now the secret for the reasons of the whole stinking campaign:

is it because these behind staying interested want to compete on official level with these new engines? NOPE!

is it because they doubt that Vas is better than they themselves? NOPE!

So, what is the secret?

The secret is that Vas has found out something that all others couldnt find till now. That causes envy. And rage because they feel fooled.

So, the secret goes like this. BTW it was openly declared by Norman S. before he was thrown out after another clone case where he tried to sell a clone!

The secret is that you create a clone that is nothing but a clone and then the propaganda runs this way.

If Vas had nothing to hide and would seriously say that it's a clone THEN he must open his code and prove his claim. And that would be payday for the cloner family. Because they want to know the secrets. (...)

What "secret"?
You are pretty confused.
If the program was stolen, there is no secret anymore.
It it was clonned, the secret vanished.

But, let´s return to the fact:

Robbolitos are 60-65 elo point stronger than Rybka 3.

[slobo]

when Chris Wittington was moderator, did he not say 'discussion is allowed, libel not'?

Yes, but he meant it the other way round. The point was that certain members insulted Vas for having created a clone in parts. And the clone epidemy has the single goal, that is, to force or seduce Vas to prove something by opening his code.

Again and again the same Rolf´s confusion:

Who would need Rybka 3´s code to be open if we already have the open code of an engine 60-65 elo points stronger than Rybka 3?

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

when Chris Wittington was moderator, did he not say 'discussion is allowed, libel not'?

Yes, but he meant it the other way round. The point was that certain members insulted Vas for having created a clone in parts. And the clone epidemy has the single goal, that is, to force or seduce Vas to prove something by opening his code.

Again and again the same Rolf´s confusion:

Who would need Rybka 3´s code to be open if we already have the open code of an engine 60-65 elo points stronger than Rybka 3?

Makes sense to,donno about Rolf

[gerold]

In all fairness i don't think anyone would be disappointed if this thread
was moved to the Rybka forum.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

In all fairness i don't think anyone would be disappointed if this thread
was moved to the Rybka forum.

Then pakage it and carry it there

[Rolf]

60-65 elo points stronger than Rybka 3? Rolf

Who said that? A thief or a cloner? Yes, these people steal and then make it stronger. But then it's still the stolen product. Since when the community accepts these products of criminals?

At first the leak will be shut down and then a new Rybka appears and the whole clone-thives stuff will vanish.

All the best to honest users in computerchess. BTW I think that all the fantasy numbers above are not result of honest testers because honest testern dont test thief products.

These thief products wont participate in championships either.

Of course the self-healing energies in the community will allow that former cloners will become honest programmers in the online improvement of Rybka. The criminals will be sane again and everybody is happy.

[Graham Banks]

Who would need Rybka 3´s code to be open if we already have the open code of an engine 60-65 elo points stronger than Rybka 3?

Why worry about your own car when you can steal your neighbour's better one?