test position of positional understanding

[Uri Blass]

how much time does your favourite program need to see that white is losing or even only to see only a significant advantage for black

[D]1rb1k2r/2q1bppp/p2p4/n3p3/P1pPP3/1pP1BN2/1P3PPP/RB1Q1RK1 w k - 0 17

This position if from the following game

http://www.iccf-webchess.com/MakeAMove.aspx?id=204281

White rook at a1 cannot move because the bishop at b1 cannot move so I believe that white is losing.

Uri

[Kurt Utzinger]

Hi Uri
It might be that none of today's chess engine is/will be able to understand this position.
Regards
Kurt

[Engin]

Hi Uri,
you give me a new idea to not only count the pieces mobility by free squares.

i will now count squares only if they not attacked by enemy !

example: the bishop on b1 can move to free squares c2, d3, a2 but all this squares are attacked by black pawns, other rook have a2 and a3 but a2 is also attacked by an black pawn.

[zamar]

Hi Uri,
you give me a new idea to not only count the pieces mobility by free squares.

i will now count squares only if they not attacked by enemy !

Stockfish already excludes squares attacked by enemy pawns for mobility calculation. Even then it has absolutely no understanding of the position

White's position is almost hopeless in this specific case,because:

* Mobility for bishop is zero.
* Rook can only oscillate between two squares because of the bishop.
* Pawn structure on the queen side is blocked
* White has no realistic attacking plan on black's queen side pawn structure.

I think it's almost impossible to add special knowledge like this in chess engine Black's winning plan is far beyond horizon... Monte Carlo is the only way out, I think...

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

Hi Uri,
you give me a new idea to not only count the pieces mobility by free squares.

i will now count squares only if they not attacked by enemy !

Stockfish already excludes squares attacked by enemy pawns for mobility calculation. Even then it has absolutely no understanding of the position

White's position is almost hopeless in this specific case,because:

* Mobility for bishop is zero.
* Rook can only oscillate between two squares because of the bishop.
* Pawn structure on the queen side is blocked
* White has no realistic attacking plan on black's queen side pawn structure.

I think it's almost impossible to add special knowledge like this in chess engine Black's winning plan is far beyond horizon... Monte Carlo is the only way out, I think...

True,also I am not a first fan of this analysis method,I think that here it will present a powerful tool to roll out the tricky position....
Dr.D

[Engin]

yes, stockfish discount attacked squares, my other idea to solve the bad rook on a1 is, because bishop on b1 have mobility zero then also penalty the rook on a1, on the a-file the pawn on a4 cant move, this is a penalty too for the rook, all this together give the rook on a1 a big penalty.

[michiguel]

how much time does your favourite program need to see that white is losing or even only to see only a significant advantage for black

[D]1rb1k2r/2q1bppp/p2p4/n3p3/P1pPP3/1pP1BN2/1P3PPP/RB1Q1RK1 w k - 0 17

This position if from the following game

http://www.iccf-webchess.com/MakeAMove.aspx?id=204281

White rook at a1 cannot move because the bishop at b1 cannot move so I believe that white is losing.

Uri

No other than Petrosian showed this theme against his game against Gligoric. A Classic in the King's Indian. However, he could have improved it. In this position, the best move is a4! ensuring that the Rook will stay in a8 forever (b5 will always be replied by a5 and a5 replied by b5). Petrosian played Nc4 and won anyway, but black had few counter chances.

Miguel

[D]r1b2rk1/2p1q1n1/ppPp1b1p/3Pppn1/1P3P1B/2N3P1/P2NB2P/2RQ1R1K w - - 1 21 bm a4

This is the position in which Petrosian played the positionally shocking c6, deciding the game in his favor. White rarely wants to seal the Q side! In this case, it is the way to go. White needs to follow up c6! with exf5! gxf5/ g3! with the idea of f4 and if black plays f4 white seals the Bishop with g4. Petrosian was a genius.

[D]r1b2rk1/1pp1q1b1/p2p2pp/2PPppnn/1P2P2B/2N2P2/P2NB1PP/2RQ1R1K w - - 1 17 bm c6

[metax]

how much time does your favourite program need to see that white is losing or even only to see only a significant advantage for black

I am not sure if -0.44, which is ChessMind's evaluation on depth 14 after 50 sec, is to be called significant. I don't think so...

edit: In Miguel's first position, ChessMind evaluates shocking +2.30 which seems to be way too much...

[Eelco de Groot]

Hi Uri,
you give me a new idea to not only count the pieces mobility by free squares.

i will now count squares only if they not attacked by enemy !

Stockfish already excludes squares attacked by enemy pawns for mobility calculation. Even then it has absolutely no understanding of the position

White's position is almost hopeless in this specific case,because:

* Mobility for bishop is zero.
* Rook can only oscillate between two squares because of the bishop.
* Pawn structure on the queen side is blocked
* White has no realistic attacking plan on black's queen side pawn structure.

I think it's almost impossible to add special knowledge like this in chess engine Black's winning plan is far beyond horizon... Monte Carlo is the only way out, I think...

I disagree Uri also posted the position in the Rybka forum and so far I have not been able to show any advantage for Black, despite a searchdepth of 6 plies along the PV of a first search + 23 plies in the second search. Plus all the PV extensions. Zero advantage. So I think it just doesn't exist If Black can do anything it would have shown up by now.

http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... ?tid=13584

[yanquis1972]

then why did black win and where is whites error?