In a game played Sunday, this position occurred.
[d]1rb1kb1r/2qn1ppp/p2pp3/1p4P1/1P1NPP2/P1N2Q2/2P4P/2KR1B1R w k - 1 15
How long does your engine need to find 15. Nd5?
Stockfish does not find it after a few hours on my slow machine, but if I enter the Nd5, ed5, ed5, it does see it after a few minutes.
Nakamura, Hikaru - Van Wely, Loek
Corus A Wijk aan Zee NED (2), 2010.01.17
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Nbd7 8.Qf3 Qc7 9.Bxf6 Nxf6 10.g4 b5 11.g5 Nd7 12.O-O-O Nc5 13.a3 Rb8 14.b4 Nd7 15.Nd5 exd5 16.exd5 Be7 17.Re1 Ne5 18.fxe5 Bxg5+ 19.Kb1 dxe5 20.Nc6 Bf6 21.Bd3 h5 22.Rxe5+ Bxe5 23.Re1 Bg4 24.Qf4 O-O 25.Rxe5 g6 26.Qf6 Rbe8 27.Ne7+ Rxe7 28.Rxe7 Qxh2 29.Bxg6 Qh1+ 30.Kb2 Qxd5 31.Bxf7+ Qxf7 32.Rxf7 Rxf7 33.Qxa6 Kg7 34.Qxb5 Kg6 35.Qc4 Rd7 36.b5 Kg5 37.b6 Bf3 38.Qb5+ Rd5 39.Qb3 1-0
Test position from Corus
Moderator: Ras
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Re: Test position from Corus
To be fair to engines, this position was probably still in opening theory preparation for Nakamura. I am not even sure that this is a TN. It was one hell of a nice win though. Nakamura is the King of tactics and his ability to see stuff very quickly is remarkable.
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Re: Test position from Corus
Why should an engine find 15.Nd5?
Because Nakamura played it and won?
Engines try to find the best move in an objective sense.
There is no evidence that 15.Nd5 is the best move.
Usually a GM in his preparation will look for a new move which is not bad.
Playing such a move gives him a big advantage because the position is known to him, but not to his opponent.
Such knight sacrifices on d5 in order to open the g-file when the black king has not castled are well known.
kind regards
Bernhard
Because Nakamura played it and won?
Engines try to find the best move in an objective sense.
There is no evidence that 15.Nd5 is the best move.
Usually a GM in his preparation will look for a new move which is not bad.
Playing such a move gives him a big advantage because the position is known to him, but not to his opponent.
Such knight sacrifices on d5 in order to open the g-file when the black king has not castled are well known.
kind regards
Bernhard
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Re: Test position from Corus
[d]1rb1kb1r/2qn1ppp/p2p4/1p1P2P1/1P1N1P2/P4Q2/2P4P/2KR1B1R b k -
When I look at the position after the sacrifise, I think that Stockfish (current devel snapshot) evaluates it quite well
White has sacrifised a piece, but has excellent compensation from it. These positions are often very balanced and only very deep search (depth 20) can reveal that white has advantage.
I believe that Nd5 is objectively best from the start position, but it could take days for Stockfish to find it. Humans have great advantage, because they are able to recognize themes and Nd5 really is the thematic move in these kind of positions. Making engines to recognize patterns is still unachieved goal.
2 +1.58 00:00 912 Nb6 Re1+ Be7 Nc6 Nxd5 Qxd5 Be6 Nxe7 Qxe7 Qc6+ Qd7
Qxa6 O-O Bd3
3 +1.25 00:00 1165 Nb6 Nc6 Be7 Nxb8 Qxb8
4 -1.74 00:00 1703 Nb6 Re1+ Be7 Nc6 Nxd5 Nxb8 Be6 Nxa6 Qb6
4 +1.05 00:00 1936 Be7 Nc6 Bb7 Nxb8 Qxb8 Qe3
5 +0.73 00:00 2772 Be7 Re1 Nf8 Nc6 Ng6 Nxb8 Qxb8 h4 O-O h5
6 < -0.12 00:00 3441 Be7 Re1 Nf8 Nc6 Ng6 h4 Rb7 Bd3
7 -0.20 00:00 5798 Be7 Re1 Nf8 Nc6 Ng6 Bd3 Nh4 Qh5
8 +0.36 00:00 25298 Be7 Re1 Nf8 Nc6 Ng6 Bd3 Bb7 Bxg6 Bxc6 Bxf7+ Kxf7
dxc6 g6 Qe4
9 -0.20 00:00 82037 Be7 Re1 Nf8 Nc6 Ng6 Bd3 Bb7 Nxb8 Qxb8 h4 Qc7 Qe4
Qc3 h5 Qxa3+ Kb1 f5 gxf6
9 +0.00 00:00 92071 Bb7 Qe3+ Kd8 Bg2 Qc4 Nc6+ Bxc6 dxc6 Nb6 Rhe1 Qe6
Qxe6 fxe6 Rxe6
10 +0.00 00:00 138000 Bb7 Qe3+ Kd8 Re1 Qc8 Bg2 Ra8 Qe8+ Kc7 Qxf7 h6
Ne6+ Kb6 g6 Nf6 Nxg7 Nxd5 Bxd5 Bxd5 Qxd5 Bxg7
11 < -0.36 00:00 165735 Bb7 Qe3+ Kd8 Re1 Qc8 Bg2 Ra8 Nc6+ Kc7 Qc3
12 -0.28 00:00 317513 Bb7 Qe3+ Kd8 Re1 Qc8 Bg2 Ra8 Nc6+ Kc7 Qc3 Kb6 h4
h6 Rhf1 hxg5 fxg5 f6
13 -0.20 00:01 1145k Bb7 Qe3+ Kd8 Re1 Qc8 Bg2 Ra8 h4 Kc7 Qc3+ Kb6 Nc6
h6 Rhf1 f5 Re6 hxg5 hxg5 Rh2 Qd4+ Kc7 Bf3 Nb6
14 +0.00 00:04 3501k Bb7 Qe3+ Kd8 Re1 Qc8 Bg2 Ra8 Qe8+ Kc7 Qxf7 Kb6
Nc6 Qc7 Kb1 h6 Qe6 Bc8 Qe3+ Kb7 Na5+ Kb8 Nc6+ Kb7
15 -0.08 00:06 5296k Bb7 Qe3+ Kd8 Re1 Qc8 Qe8+ Kc7 Qxf7 Kb6 Re3 h6 Bh3
Qc4 Rd1 hxg5 Qxd7 gxf4 Rf3 Qc8 Qxc8 Bxc8 Nc6 Ra8
Bxc8 Rxc8 Rxf4 Rxh2
16 -0.16 00:10 8911k Bb7 Bh3 Kd8 Rhe1 Nb6 Qe4 Qe7 Qg2 Qc7 Qe2 Qe7 Qg4
Qc7 Re2 Nxd5 Rde1 Be7
16 > +0.28 00:11 9332k Be7 Re1 Bb7 Nf5 Kf8 Qe4 Re8 Kb1 Qd8 Qd4 Rg8
17 +0.20 00:18 14929k Be7 Re1 Kf8 Qe4 Nb6 Nc6 Rb7 Rg1 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4
Qxc4 Bd8 Qxa6 g6 Qd3 Kg7 Nxd8 Rxd8 Kb1
18 -0.28 00:25 21109k Be7 Re1 Kf8 Qe4 Nb6 Nc6 Rb7 Rg1 Qd7 Qd4 Bd8 Rg3
Nc4 Bh3 Qc7 Qe4 Bd7 a4 Rb6 axb5 axb5
19 -0.16 00:38 30904k Be7 Re1 Kf8 Qe4 Nb6 Nc6 Rb7 Rg1 Rg8 Rg3 g6 Rge3
Bd8 Qd4 Bd7 Bg2 Nc4 R3e2 Nxa3 Qc3 Nc4 Kb1 Qc8 h4
Bxc6 dxc6
20 -0.69 01:18 63139k Be7 Re1 Kf8 Qe4 Nb6 Nc6 Nxd5 Qxd5 Be6 Qf3 Rc8 Nd4
Bd7 Bh3 h6 Bxd7 Qxd7 h4 hxg5 fxg5 Kg8 Kb2 Qc7
Rhf1 Bf8 g6 fxg6
When I look at the position after the sacrifise, I think that Stockfish (current devel snapshot) evaluates it quite well

I believe that Nd5 is objectively best from the start position, but it could take days for Stockfish to find it. Humans have great advantage, because they are able to recognize themes and Nd5 really is the thematic move in these kind of positions. Making engines to recognize patterns is still unachieved goal.
2 +1.58 00:00 912 Nb6 Re1+ Be7 Nc6 Nxd5 Qxd5 Be6 Nxe7 Qxe7 Qc6+ Qd7
Qxa6 O-O Bd3
3 +1.25 00:00 1165 Nb6 Nc6 Be7 Nxb8 Qxb8
4 -1.74 00:00 1703 Nb6 Re1+ Be7 Nc6 Nxd5 Nxb8 Be6 Nxa6 Qb6
4 +1.05 00:00 1936 Be7 Nc6 Bb7 Nxb8 Qxb8 Qe3
5 +0.73 00:00 2772 Be7 Re1 Nf8 Nc6 Ng6 Nxb8 Qxb8 h4 O-O h5
6 < -0.12 00:00 3441 Be7 Re1 Nf8 Nc6 Ng6 h4 Rb7 Bd3
7 -0.20 00:00 5798 Be7 Re1 Nf8 Nc6 Ng6 Bd3 Nh4 Qh5
8 +0.36 00:00 25298 Be7 Re1 Nf8 Nc6 Ng6 Bd3 Bb7 Bxg6 Bxc6 Bxf7+ Kxf7
dxc6 g6 Qe4
9 -0.20 00:00 82037 Be7 Re1 Nf8 Nc6 Ng6 Bd3 Bb7 Nxb8 Qxb8 h4 Qc7 Qe4
Qc3 h5 Qxa3+ Kb1 f5 gxf6
9 +0.00 00:00 92071 Bb7 Qe3+ Kd8 Bg2 Qc4 Nc6+ Bxc6 dxc6 Nb6 Rhe1 Qe6
Qxe6 fxe6 Rxe6
10 +0.00 00:00 138000 Bb7 Qe3+ Kd8 Re1 Qc8 Bg2 Ra8 Qe8+ Kc7 Qxf7 h6
Ne6+ Kb6 g6 Nf6 Nxg7 Nxd5 Bxd5 Bxd5 Qxd5 Bxg7
11 < -0.36 00:00 165735 Bb7 Qe3+ Kd8 Re1 Qc8 Bg2 Ra8 Nc6+ Kc7 Qc3
12 -0.28 00:00 317513 Bb7 Qe3+ Kd8 Re1 Qc8 Bg2 Ra8 Nc6+ Kc7 Qc3 Kb6 h4
h6 Rhf1 hxg5 fxg5 f6
13 -0.20 00:01 1145k Bb7 Qe3+ Kd8 Re1 Qc8 Bg2 Ra8 h4 Kc7 Qc3+ Kb6 Nc6
h6 Rhf1 f5 Re6 hxg5 hxg5 Rh2 Qd4+ Kc7 Bf3 Nb6
14 +0.00 00:04 3501k Bb7 Qe3+ Kd8 Re1 Qc8 Bg2 Ra8 Qe8+ Kc7 Qxf7 Kb6
Nc6 Qc7 Kb1 h6 Qe6 Bc8 Qe3+ Kb7 Na5+ Kb8 Nc6+ Kb7
15 -0.08 00:06 5296k Bb7 Qe3+ Kd8 Re1 Qc8 Qe8+ Kc7 Qxf7 Kb6 Re3 h6 Bh3
Qc4 Rd1 hxg5 Qxd7 gxf4 Rf3 Qc8 Qxc8 Bxc8 Nc6 Ra8
Bxc8 Rxc8 Rxf4 Rxh2
16 -0.16 00:10 8911k Bb7 Bh3 Kd8 Rhe1 Nb6 Qe4 Qe7 Qg2 Qc7 Qe2 Qe7 Qg4
Qc7 Re2 Nxd5 Rde1 Be7
16 > +0.28 00:11 9332k Be7 Re1 Bb7 Nf5 Kf8 Qe4 Re8 Kb1 Qd8 Qd4 Rg8
17 +0.20 00:18 14929k Be7 Re1 Kf8 Qe4 Nb6 Nc6 Rb7 Rg1 Nc4 Bxc4 bxc4
Qxc4 Bd8 Qxa6 g6 Qd3 Kg7 Nxd8 Rxd8 Kb1
18 -0.28 00:25 21109k Be7 Re1 Kf8 Qe4 Nb6 Nc6 Rb7 Rg1 Qd7 Qd4 Bd8 Rg3
Nc4 Bh3 Qc7 Qe4 Bd7 a4 Rb6 axb5 axb5
19 -0.16 00:38 30904k Be7 Re1 Kf8 Qe4 Nb6 Nc6 Rb7 Rg1 Rg8 Rg3 g6 Rge3
Bd8 Qd4 Bd7 Bg2 Nc4 R3e2 Nxa3 Qc3 Nc4 Kb1 Qc8 h4
Bxc6 dxc6
20 -0.69 01:18 63139k Be7 Re1 Kf8 Qe4 Nb6 Nc6 Nxd5 Qxd5 Be6 Qf3 Rc8 Nd4
Bd7 Bh3 h6 Bxd7 Qxd7 h4 hxg5 fxg5 Kg8 Kb2 Qc7
Rhf1 Bf8 g6 fxg6
Joona Kiiski
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Re: Test position from Corus
On my machine ( i7 @ 3.75 GHz ) , Toby finds Nd5 in 28 seconds , with pv = +.50 . After 5 mins with the eval dropping , Toby switches to Bh3 , pv = +.25 .
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Re: Test position from Corus
Code: Select all
7: 1rb1kb1r/2qn1ppp/p2pp3/1p4P1/1
1rb1kb1r/2qn1ppp/p2pp3/1p4P1/1P1NPP2/P1N2Q2/2P4P/2KR1B1R w k - 0 1
Analysis by Crafty 23.01 cb 20091121:
15.h4 Bb7 16.h5 Rc8 17.Rh3 Be7 18.h6 gxh6 19.gxh6
= (0.01) Depth: 9/19 00:00:00 408kN
15.h4 Bb7 16.h5 Rc8 17.Rh3 Be7 18.Qg4 Qb6 19.h6 gxh6 20.gxh6
= (0.15) Depth: 10/22 00:00:00 1002kN
15.h4 Bb7 16.h5 Rc8 17.Rh3 Be7 18.Qg4 Qb6 19.h6 gxh6 20.gxh6
= (0.15) Depth: 11/23 00:00:00 1652kN
15.Rg1 Bb7 16.Rg3 Nb6 17.Qh5 g6 18.Qh4 Nc4 19.f5 exf5 20.Bxc4 Qxc4 21.exf5 gxf5 22.Nxf5 Qxh4 23.Nxh4
= (0.25) Depth: 11/25 00:00:00 1619kN
15.Rg1 Bb7 16.Rg3 Nb6 17.Rh3 g6 18.Qg3 h6 19.f5 e5 20.Nb3 Nc4 21.Bxc4 Qxc4 22.fxg6 fxg6
= (0.09) Depth: 12/26 00:00:01 5282kN
15.h4 Bb7 16.Rh3 Rc8 17.h5 Nb6 18.Qg4 Be7 19.f5 exf5 20.exf5 0-0
= (0.14) Depth: 12/28 00:00:02 1486kN
15.h4 Bb7 16.Rh3 Rc8 17.h5 Nb6 18.h6 gxh6 19.Qh5 Qd7 20.gxh6 Na4 21.Nxa4 bxa4
= (0.24) Depth: 13/28 00:00:02 12693kN
15.h4 Bb7 16.Rh3 Rc8 17.h5 Nb6 18.h6 gxh6 19.Qh5 Qd7 20.gxh6 Na4 21.Nxa4 bxa4
= (0.24) Depth: 14/28 00:00:04 19518kN
15.h4 Be7 16.h5 Nb6 17.Bg2 e5 18.Nde2 exf4 19.g6 Bf6 20.gxf7+ Qxf7 21.Qxf4 Bxc3 22.Qxf7+ Kxf7 23.Nxc3
+/= (0.26) Depth: 15/32 00:00:12 63229kN
15.h4 Bb7 16.h5 Nb6 17.Rh3 Rc8 18.Qg4 Na4 19.Nxa4 bxa4 20.c4 Be7 21.Re3 Qb6 22.h6 gxh6 23.gxh6
+/= (0.32) Depth: 16/34 00:00:34 179mN
15.h4 Bb7 16.Rh3 e5 17.fxe5 Nxe5 18.Qf4 Be7 19.h5 0-0 20.Nf5 Rbc8 21.h6 g6 22.Ng7 f6 23.gxf6 Bxf6
= (0.22) Depth: 17/35 00:00:53 282mN
15.h4 Bb7 16.Rh3 e5 17.fxe5 Nxe5 18.Qf4 Be7 19.h5 0-0 20.Nf5 Rbc8 21.h6 g6 22.Ng7 f6 23.gxf6 Bxf6
= (0.22) Depth: 18/37 00:01:35 508mN
15.h4 Bb7 16.Rh3 Rc8 17.f5 e5 18.Nb3 h6 19.Rd3 Be7 20.Qg4 h5 21.Qg2 Qb6 22.g6 0-0 23.gxf7+ Rxf7 24.Qg6 Qf2
+/= (0.28) Depth: 19/39 00:03:48 1208mN
15.h4 Bb7 16.Rh3 Rc8 17.f5 e5 18.Nb3 h6 19.Rd3 hxg5 20.hxg5 Rxh3 21.Bxh3 Qb6 22.Na5 Qg1+ 23.Kb2 Ba8 24.Bg4 Qe1 25.Ka2
+/= (0.30) Depth: 20/40 00:06:27 2053mN
(, chessengines20 18.01.2010)
hi, merhaba, hallo HT
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Re: Test position from Corus
Code: Select all
7: 1rb1kb1r/2qn1ppp/p2pp3/1p4P1/1
1rb1kb1r/2qn1ppp/p2pp3/1p4P1/1P1NPP2/P1N2Q2/2P4P/2KR1B1R w k - 0 1
Analysis by Crafty 22.09 cb w32:
15.h4 Bb7 16.Rh3 Be7 17.h5 Rc8 18.Be2 Nb6 19.Rg3 Nc4 20.h6 g6 21.Bxc4
+/= (0.27) Depth: 13/29 00:00:02 8996kN
15.h4 Bb7 16.Rh3 Be7 17.h5 Rc8 18.Be2 Nb6 19.Rg3 Nc4 20.h6 g6 21.Bxc4 Qxc4
+/= (0.27) Depth: 14/32 00:00:05 21276kN
15.h4 Bb7 16.Rh3 Rc8 17.h5 Nb6 18.Rg3 Nc4 19.Bxc4 Qxc4 20.Qg4 Be7 21.h6 g6 22.Rgd3
+/= (0.34) Depth: 15/35 00:00:09 39558kN
15.h4 Bb7 16.Rh3 Rc8 17.h5 Nb6 18.Qg4 Na4 19.Nxa4 bxa4 20.c4 e5 21.fxe5 dxe5 22.Nf5 Rd8
+/= (0.37) Depth: 16/34 00:00:15 63960kN
15.h4 Bb7 16.Rh3 Rc8 17.h5 Nb6 18.Qg2 Nc4 19.Bxc4 Qxc4 20.f5 exf5 21.Nxf5 Qe6 22.Rf3 Qe5 23.Qh3
+/= (0.33) Depth: 17/34 00:00:32 139mN
15.h4 Bb7 16.Rh3 Rc8 17.Rd2 Nb6 18.f5 e5 19.Nb3 Nc4 20.Bxc4 Qxc4 21.f6 Rg8 22.fxg7 Rxg7 23.Na5 Qxc3 24.Qxc3 Rxc3 25.Rxc3 Bxe4
+/= (0.43) Depth: 18/37 00:01:34 407mN
15.h4 Nb6 16.Rh3 Bd7 17.f5 e5 18.Nb3 h6 19.gxh6 Rxh6 20.h5 Rc8 21.Qg2 Nc4 22.Nd5 Qd8 23.Bxc4 Rxc4 24.Qe2 Qg5+ 25.Kb2
+/= (0.30) Depth: 19/41 00:05:25 1429mN
15.Rg1 Bb7 16.Rg3 Nb6 17.Rh3 Qc8 18.Qf2 Nc4 19.Bxc4 bxc4 20.f5 e5 21.Nf3 g6
+/= (0.35) Depth: 19/42 00:16:39 1086mN
(, chessengines20 18.01.2010)
hi, merhaba, hallo HT
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- Posts: 3533
- Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:33 pm
- Location: Antalya, Turkey
Re: Test position from Corus
Code: Select all
7: 1rb1kb1r/2qn1ppp/p2pp3/1p4P1/1
1rb1kb1r/2qn1ppp/p2pp3/1p4P1/1P1NPP2/P1N2Q2/2P4P/2KR1B1R w k - 0 1
Analysis by Deep Fritz 10:
15.Bh3 Nb6 16.f5 e5 17.Nde2 h6 18.gxh6 Rxh6 19.Qd3 a5 20.Rhg1 axb4 21.axb4 Ra8 22.Nxb5 Qc6 23.Nec3 Ra1+
= (0.16) Depth: 16/42 00:00:23 144mN
15.Bh3 Nb6 16.Rhg1 e5 17.Nde2 a5 18.fxe5 Bxh3 19.Qxh3 axb4 20.exd6 Bxd6 21.axb4 Nc4 22.g6 Ra8 23.Rgf1 Ra1+
= (-0.11) Depth: 17/46 00:00:54 348mN
15.Qh3
= (-0.11) Depth: 17/46 00:01:22 528mN
15.Qh3
= (0.05) Depth: 17/46 00:01:27 560mN
15.Qh3 Bb7 16.Rg1 Rc8 17.Rg3 g6 18.Nxe6 fxe6 19.Qxe6+ Be7 20.Rf3 Nf8 21.Qb3 Nd7 22.Bh3 a5 23.Nxb5 Qc6
= (0.18) Depth: 17/46 00:01:32 590mN
15.Qh3 Bb7 16.Rg1 Rc8 17.Rg3 g6 18.Nxe6 fxe6 19.Qxe6+ Be7 20.Rf3 Nb6 21.Bh3 a5 22.bxa5 Na4 23.Rdd3 Nc5
= (0.13) Depth: 18/45 00:02:08 818mN
15.Qh3 Bb7 16.Rg1 Rc8 17.Rg3 g6 18.Nxe6 fxe6 19.Qxe6+ Be7 20.Bh3 a5 21.Rd2 Bc6 22.Kb1 axb4 23.axb4 Nb6
= (0.08) Depth: 19/44 00:04:47 1848mN
15.Rg1
= (0.08) Depth: 19/46 00:06:15 2416mN
15.Rg1 Bb7 16.Rg3 e5 17.fxe5 Nxe5 18.Qe2 g6 19.Nd5 Bxd5
= (0.14) Depth: 19/50 00:07:18 2818mN
15.f5
= (0.14) Depth: 19/50 00:09:07 3531mN
15.f5 Ne5 16.Qh3 Bd7 17.fxe6 fxe6 18.Nce2 Qc4 19.Kb1 Ng6 20.Qg3 e5 21.Nc3 Qf7 22.Nf5 Bxf5 23.exf5 Qxf5
= (0.11) Depth: 20/51 00:15:43 6138mN
(, chessengines20 18.01.2010)
hi, merhaba, hallo HT
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- Posts: 175
- Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:08 pm
Re: Test position from Corus
Brilliant win. 13.a3 might be the novelty. Well played by GM Nakamura.
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- Posts: 3533
- Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:33 pm
- Location: Antalya, Turkey
Re: Test position from Corus
Code: Select all
7: 1rb1kb1r/2qn1ppp/p2pp3/1p4P1/1
1rb1kb1r/2qn1ppp/p2pp3/1p4P1/1P1NPP2/P1N2Q2/2P4P/2KR1B1R w k - 0 1
Analysis by Deep Fritz 10:
15.f5 Ne5 16.Qh3 Bd7 17.fxe6 fxe6 18.Nce2 Qc4 19.Kb1 Ng6 20.Qg3 e5 21.Nc3 Qf7 22.Nf5 Bxf5 23.exf5 Qxf5
= (0.11) Depth: 20/51 00:15:43 6138mN
15.Rg1
= (0.11) Depth: 20/51 00:16:40 6471mN
(, chessengines20 18.01.2010)
hi, merhaba, hallo HT