Kasparov on computer chess in the New York Review of Books

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderator: Ras

James Constance
Posts: 358
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:36 pm
Location: UK

Kasparov on computer chess in the New York Review of Books

Post by James Constance »

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/23592
With the supremacy of the chess machines now apparent and the contest of "Man vs. Machine" a thing of the past, perhaps it is time to return to the goals that made computer chess so attractive to many of the finest minds of the twentieth century. Playing better chess was a problem they wanted to solve, yes, and it has been solved. But there were other goals as well: to develop a program that played chess by thinking like a human, perhaps even by learning the game as a human does. Surely this would be a far more fruitful avenue of investigation than creating, as we are doing, ever-faster algorithms to run on ever-faster hardware.

This is our last chess metaphor, then—a metaphor for how we have discarded innovation and creativity in exchange for a steady supply of marketable products. The dreams of creating an artificial intelligence that would engage in an ancient game symbolic of human thought have been abandoned. Instead, every year we have new chess programs, and new versions of old ones, that are all based on the same basic programming concepts for picking a move by searching through millions of possibilities that were developed in the 1960s and 1970s.

Like so much else in our technology-rich and innovation-poor modern world, chess computing has fallen prey to incrementalism and the demands of the market. Brute-force programs play the best chess, so why bother with anything else? Why waste time and money experimenting with new and innovative ideas when we already know what works? Such thinking should horrify anyone worthy of the name of scientist, but it seems, tragically, to be the norm. Our best minds have gone into financial engineering instead of real engineering, with catastrophic results for both sectors.

Some truth there, I think :!: :shock:
User avatar
fern
Posts: 8755
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 4:07 pm

Re: Kasparov on computer chess in the New York Review of Boo

Post by fern »

Interesting thoughts, but perhaps it c ould be made the point that why to simulate an imperfect thinking machine as human brain is.
After all in chess as in other areas, what matter is the result. In arts and elsewherre no machine can outperform us.

Fern
Albert Silver
Posts: 3026
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:57 pm
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil

Re: Kasparov on computer chess in the New York Review of Boo

Post by Albert Silver »

fern wrote:Interesting thoughts, but perhaps it c ould be made the point that why to simulate an imperfect thinking machine as human brain is.
After all in chess as in other areas, what matter is the result. In arts and elsewherre no machine can outperform us.

Fern
Of course the obvious reason is that the arts do not follow the Greek Olympic motto: "Stronger, faster, taller". :-)
"Tactics are the bricks and sticks that make up a game, but positional play is the architectural blueprint."
pgeorges

Re: Kasparov on computer chess in the New York Review of Boo

Post by pgeorges »

Thanks for the article, it is worth the reading.

Pascal Georges
User avatar
michiguel
Posts: 6401
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:30 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA

Re: Kasparov on computer chess in the New York Review of Boo

Post by michiguel »

fern wrote:Interesting thoughts, but perhaps it c ould be made the point that why to simulate an imperfect thinking machine as human brain is.
After all in chess as in other areas, what matter is the result. In arts and elsewherre no machine can outperform us.

Fern
"Pensar es olvidar diferencias, es generalizar, abstraer."

Borges, en Funes el memorioso.

Miguel
peter
Posts: 3443
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:38 am
Full name: Peter Martan

Re: Kasparov on computer chess in the New York Review of Boo

Post by peter »

fern wrote:Interesting thoughts, but perhaps it c ould be made the point that why to simulate an imperfect thinking machine as human brain is.
After all in chess as in other areas, what matter is the result. In arts and elsewherre no machine can outperform us.
Fern
Hi!
As I understand Garry, he would like computers playing chess to be even more helpful instruments for human players and the necessity to win against other computers simply by higher speed of calculation should be not the only reason for further developments.
As for my personal point of view I see the possibility of a blind end in chess- programming not so dangerous. With ratings of 3500 Elo and more, even if the rating- system is changed, differences of 100 Elo will count less and less and the probability of remis will come to a height, that other ways of competing in computing will get necessary anyhow, if humans still want to be able to see the difference in chess played by different engines.
Peter.
kurt

Re: Kasparov on computer chess in the New York Review of Boo

Post by kurt »

Albert Silver wrote:
fern wrote:Interesting thoughts, but perhaps it c ould be made the point that why to simulate an imperfect thinking machine as human brain is.
After all in chess as in other areas, what matter is the result. In arts and elsewherre no machine can outperform us.

Fern
Of course the obvious reason is that the arts do not follow the Greek Olympic motto: "Stronger, faster, taller". :-)
Hi ,
Kasparov’s view is very interesting indeed which triggered my thoughts about this subject.
In a nut shell – he likes to see more human innovation and play romantic chess.
If I understand it correctly; he would like to see the clock of time turned back where risk taking was considered chess playing at the highest level. How then should we rate the talent of P. Murphy and R. Fisher for their decision making ability when applying available knowledge based on current theory?
Is trying to achieve an ever faster chess playing algorithm and producing ever faster processing speed not credited as an invention of humans?
At this time of chess engines evolution the opening theory or practice of the human masters is still the foundation to allow engines to play at Super GM level. Therefore opening theory a derivative of engine and human game history will be the most important factor to reach the 3500 ELO plateau and above for some time to come.
In search of the yet elusive finite draw position(s) the importance of opening theory will diminish as the CPU speed increases. This should hold true for the pruning of algorithm and the significance of human innovations in the process to solve chess.
User avatar
Spacious_Mind
Posts: 317
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:05 am
Location: Alabama

Re: Kasparov on computer chess in the New York Review of Boo

Post by Spacious_Mind »

fern wrote:Interesting thoughts, but perhaps it c ould be made the point that why to simulate an imperfect thinking machine as human brain is.
After all in chess as in other areas, what matter is the result. In arts and elsewherre no machine can outperform us.

Fern
Who says that a computer can outperform in chess? There is no comparison. It's like comparing a match of 50 Grandmasters against a single Grandmaster.

Is a basketball player allowed to use a Pogo Stick? A Ferrari in a bicycle race? I don't think so.

Those are two different types of games being played it is like comparing apples to oranges and stating the apple is better. If a computer wants to say it is better, then let the computer play like a human and then prove it is better at art. Draw the Mona Lisa... let's see some art!! :)

I like Kasparov's article a lot.

regards

Nick
User avatar
Leto
Posts: 2098
Joined: Thu May 04, 2006 3:40 am
Location: Dune

Re: Kasparov on computer chess in the New York Review of Boo

Post by Leto »

I'm not a programmer but I think using current methods there's still a lot of room for improvement for chess engines. Just make a match between Rybka 3 and itself but give one side a time handicap and you'll see how imperfect Rybka 3 is.

However my dream is that someone will someday create an artificial intelligence (I'm thinking more of something like Data from Star Trek) that learns things just the way we do. This artificial intelligence would learn the game of chess just like we do; by learning how the pieces move, learning the strategies of the game, and learning the tactics the same way we would learn them, by reading books. This artificial intelligence will eventually write its own books about its experiences playing against top chess engines and how "unromantic" they are.

A fun thought just came to me. Would the future chess battle be between an intelligent machine and a chess engine powered up by supercomputers? The supercomputers would of course have the computational speed advantage, but would the intelligent machine's creativity prove to be a decisive factor?

That to me would be so awesome, I think about it all the time, I want to see it done so badly. Please someone do it before I die.
User avatar
Kirk
Posts: 5702
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:44 am

Re: Kasparov on computer chess in the New York Review of Boo

Post by Kirk »

Leto wrote:I'm not a programmer but I think using current methods there's still a lot of room for improvement for chess engines. Just make a match between Rybka 3 and itself but give one side a time handicap and you'll see how imperfect Rybka 3 is.

However my dream is that someone will someday create an artificial intelligence (I'm thinking more of something like Data from Star Trek) that learns things just the way we do. This artificial intelligence would learn the game of chess just like we do; by learning how the pieces move, learning the strategies of the game, and learning the tactics the same way we would learn them, by reading books. This artificial intelligence will eventually write its own books about its experiences playing against top chess engines and how "unromantic" they are.

A fun thought just came to me. Would the future chess battle be between an intelligent machine and a chess engine powered up by supercomputers? The supercomputers would of course have the computational speed advantage, but would the intelligent machine's creativity prove to be a decisive factor?

That to me would be so awesome, I think about it all the time, I want to see it done so badly. Please someone do it before I die.
How about this?

“He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor, pathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious”