Suggestions for new CCT rules

[Zatarra]

how about switching from kibitz to whispers?

a) all the same info is there
b) the tourney is now held on a server where accounts are free so there
is no problem to view the output
c) almost all observers including authors AND operators arent viewing from the remote machine they are operating anyway
d) it would completely eliminate fears that the opponent has found a method to take advantage of the kibitzed info

[bnemias]

(In fact, would it be possible for Vas to slam down the copyright hammer and declare this tournament null-and-void, because folks were using lines out of the copyrighted Rybka book without authorization?

That would be up to the TD and other relevant organizers. Assuming there is a case for infringement, that is a legal matter where damages would likely have to be shown. It has no bearing whatsoever on a tournament, particularly one that Rybka didn't even participate in.

[Harvey Williamson]

(In fact, would it be possible for Vas to slam down the copyright hammer and declare this tournament null-and-void, because folks were using lines out of the copyrighted Rybka book without authorization?

That would be up to the TD and other relevant organizers. Assuming there is a case for infringement, that is a legal matter where damages would likely have to be shown. It has no bearing whatsoever on a tournament, particularly one that Rybka didn't even participate in.

I think if someone loaded jeroen's commercial Rybka book that would be breaking the rules. If they make a book from watching Computer games in public it is just like watching GM games.

[bnemias]

I think if someone loaded jeroen's commercial Rybka book that would be breaking the rules. If they make a book from watching Computer games in public it is just like watching GM games.

I don't remember reading anything in the rules about that.

But regardless, that itself is a good reason for tournament organizers to not concern themselves with opening books. Is it worth the time and effort to track down potential abusers, and then face consequences resulting from an errant ruling where no infringement actually occurred?

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think the organizers of computer tourneys are not making a fortune-- mostly they are doing it for interest in computer chess, and they probably can't handle fallout from these issues, and so do best by avoiding them completely.

[Harvey Williamson]

I think if someone loaded jeroen's commercial Rybka book that would be breaking the rules. If they make a book from watching Computer games in public it is just like watching GM games.

I don't remember reading anything in the rules about that.

But regardless, that itself is a good reason for tournament organizers to not concern themselves with opening books. Is it worth the time and effort to track down potential abusers, and then face consequences resulting from an errant ruling where no infringement actually occurred?

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think the organizers of computer tourneys are not making a fortune-- mostly they are doing it for interest in computer chess, and they probably can't handle fallout from these issues, and so do best by avoiding them completely.

Against the rules of the tournament as they stand I guess it would not be breaking them. However as it is a commercial book sold as a stand alone product its use in CCT by any other engine than Rybka would probably be a breach of Jeroen's copyright. It would be like someone loading Rybka instead of their own engine.

However I don't think anything will get changed regarding books other than 1 author 1 book per tournament and the author should give his permision for the book to be used. I think this is a good change.

[bnemias]

Against the rules of the tournament as they stand I guess it would not be breaking them. However as it is a commercial book sold as a stand alone product its use in CCT by any other engine than Rybka would probably be a breach of Jeroen's copyright. It would be like someone loading Rybka instead of their own engine.

I'm not convinced. If the moves weren't copied, it is not a violation of copyright. Legally, running a translator to convert it to some other format is probably going to be considered copying. But ultimately proof would be required. A few common lines probably wouldn't hold up.

Again, copyright infringement is a legal matter that really is unrelated to tournaments.

[Allard Siemelink]

25..Rc7 is a possible improvement in Spark-Hiarcs, oh look another 50 move Rybka v Rybka game from book ..

This opening occured in three of our games, and unfortunately Spark never fared well with it.

BTW, Spark was out of book after move 20 here, not 50.
And it used a new book by Wael Deeb (created with Bright's book tools).

[Harvey Williamson]

25..Rc7 is a possible improvement in Spark-Hiarcs, oh look another 50 move Rybka v Rybka game from book ..

Yeah I know, this is terrible: this opening occured in three of our games, and Spark never did well with it.
BTW, Spark was out of book after move 20 here, not 50.

Yes was Hiarcs v Sjeng where 50 book moves from hiarcs and 52 from sjeng.

[CRoberson]

While a book limit makes sense (I'd consider 20 moves not 10), it is impossible to enforce. It would be easy to mod some of the the programs to send the book move to the program after the limit. At that point, the engine searches on the move and then makes the book move and spits out an eval and PV. Then you can't tell if it really searched or used the book.

[CRoberson]

For years, there has been a WCCC of all machines must have unique books. Same rule exists for ACCA tournaments.