next tournament without books

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

Moderator: Ras

User avatar
michiguel
Posts: 6401
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:30 pm
Location: Chicago, Illinois, USA

Re: next tournament without books

Post by michiguel »

Volker Pittlik wrote:
Togga wrote:the next important chess engine tournament will be without openings books. ok? or 1-2-3 half move book?

we can start a poll what the people want to have.
I guess those who write the programs wouldn't really care about such a poll.

vp
IMHO, the algorithm chosen to pick moves is nobody's business but the engine's. People can discuss whatever they want, but I have the feeling that is a waste of time. It ain't gonna happen. I have not seen a single author that agrees with this artificial rule for live tournaments. Is there any?

Miguel
Dann Corbit
Posts: 12781
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Re: next tournament without books

Post by Dann Corbit »

michiguel wrote:
Volker Pittlik wrote:
Togga wrote:the next important chess engine tournament will be without openings books. ok? or 1-2-3 half move book?

we can start a poll what the people want to have.
I guess those who write the programs wouldn't really care about such a poll.

vp
IMHO, the algorithm chosen to pick moves is nobody's business but the engine's. People can discuss whatever they want, but I have the feeling that is a waste of time. It ain't gonna happen. I have not seen a single author that agrees with this artificial rule for live tournaments. Is there any?

Miguel
I know of several engines that have an internal book. You take away all external books, and they run on the one that lives in their guts.

What's the objective anyway? If I want to see some crappy chess I can go to the local coffee shop. Oh, nevermind, that won't work either Crossroads in Bellevue.)

Of course 10 years from now it won't matter. When engines can see 50 plies ahead, the books will be superfluous. Then, engine authors will be asking, "Are you *STILL* using a book?" Of course, the book authors can let their array of 1024 CPUs pound away for months at a time and create 100 ply books that may still have outstanding value, when coupled with the best human theory.

Be that as it may, I think that a chess tournament that tries to create the best chess possible is desirable. If it fosters moves that make even a patzer like me go, "Ugh!" then there is something wrong with the basic premise.
PauloSoare
Posts: 1335
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:30 am
Location: Cabo Frio, Brasil

Re: except for

Post by PauloSoare »

I think in games with time control longer Rybka 3, Robollito and Komodo do not play Bd6.
Togga

Re: except for

Post by Togga »

yes , right.

but stockfish and others do not play Bd6 even at shorter timecontrols.

i dont know exactly but the previous versions of komodo-doch did not play Bd6. i must check it out.
Togga

Re: except for

Post by Togga »

Doch 1.3.3 plays 2...Nf6 !
Suj
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:40 am

Re: next tournament without books

Post by Suj »

Yes without book am up for it when and where.. you want to give cluster a huge plus already... and give me or erdo no work great we both will appreciate that...

To me book making is a skill/art and I do understand the frustration when some of the kibitzer feel a 50+ book game which ends in boring game but life cant be perfect..

For all those spectaors I will blame Harvey and hiarcs for playing the first 50 moves and I would take blame for remaining 6 moves... just joking....
User avatar
Graham Banks
Posts: 44323
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: next tournament without books

Post by Graham Banks »

Dann Corbit wrote: I know of several engines that have an internal book.
My only wish in such cases is that the internal opening book can be disabled if the user so chooses. :wink:
gbanksnz at gmail.com
User avatar
Graham Banks
Posts: 44323
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:52 am
Location: Auckland, NZ

Re: next tournament without books

Post by Graham Banks »

Suj wrote:Yes without book am up for it when and where.. you want to give cluster a huge plus already... and give me or erdo no work great we both will appreciate that...

To me book making is a skill/art and I do understand the frustration when some of the kibitzer feel a 50+ book game which ends in boring game but life cant be perfect..

For all those spectaors I will blame Harvey and hiarcs for playing the first 50 moves and I would take blame for remaining 6 moves... just joking....
Well - if it gets to the stage where engines "play out" a book draw without having to do any thinking for themselves, what's the point of calling it a test of engines?
gbanksnz at gmail.com
Dann Corbit
Posts: 12781
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:57 pm
Location: Redmond, WA USA

Re: next tournament without books

Post by Dann Corbit »

Graham Banks wrote:
Dann Corbit wrote: I know of several engines that have an internal book.
My only wish in such cases is that the internal opening book can be disabled if the user so chooses. :wink:
Why? {It's a serious question}.

What is the harm in allowing an internal book to be on all the time?
If it is the author's wish that the program play a certain list of openings in the event that no external book is present, why is that some kind of problem?

It will still obey external books (IOW, if you want to play a thematic tournament).

The only thing an internal book prevents is stupid moves. Is there really some reason to include these in our contests? Especially with blitz, programs with no book of any kind will play stomach churning gag-openings.
PauloSoare
Posts: 1335
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:30 am
Location: Cabo Frio, Brasil

Re: except for

Post by PauloSoare »

I think any programmer cares about the initial moves,
they develop more the middlegame, because all engines
have a book.