CCT: New rules for CCT Events #2

[garybelton]

In a previous post you said that for WCCC you could use your preferred GUI and book but not for CCT. I assumed that meant your WCCC book is different from your CCT book.

[Harvey Williamson]

In a previous post you said that for WCCC you could use your preferred GUI and book but not for CCT. I assumed that meant your WCCC book is different from your CCT book.

Our preferred set up is a very small ctg sitting on top of a broader Hiarcs internal book. The ctg will always be used 1st.

[garybelton]

Our preferred set up is a very small ctg sitting on top of a broader Hiarcs internal book. The ctg will always be used 1st.

And do you sell this small WCCC book with the product?

[Harvey Williamson]

Our preferred set up is a very small ctg sitting on top of a broader Hiarcs internal book. The ctg will always be used 1st.

And do you sell this small WCCC book with the product?

It does not exist at the moment unless you want a very old one. But we do have a very interesting book idea for H13. Don't ask me what as the answer will be no comment.

[garybelton]

It does not exist at the moment unless you want a very old one

The point is, you don't put those small killer CTG books in "the box" with H. When the CTG version of the H12 book eventually came out it was quite large, some 100's of mb's. I'm pretty sure Jeroen Noomen didn't put his tournament book in the Rybka box, only because he played different moves in his Freestyle games from what is in the Rybka books.

[michiguel]

It is unfair not to allow book public and allow to use databases of millions of games managed by a GUI like ChessBase to create a book and use an adapter of company Aquarium.

The engines of second and third division as well as not to have good opening books because usually good book creators are interested in powerful engines, they will be forced to use bad books created by their own programmers. Maybe too much work for a tournament, maybe this will make fewer entries.

Pedro

As an author of a non-top engine, I may prefer to face Jeroen Noomen only *once* in a tournament. Mostly, because it is extremely boring also to deal with the same book over and over again. Second, I do not think that having the burden to create your own book is a valid reason to allow multiplication of the same book in a tournament. It is part of the challenge! You can create a decent general automated book that will allow you to compete. For a non-top engine, the book is generally the least of the problems.

Miguel

Books have always been a major issue in computer chess. It is recognized that they can make a huge difference in strength. In the CCT12 tournament at least one of our games was over before we were out of book. We have been victims as well as victors many times because of the book - so it's clear that this is an important factor.

I do not believe there is any philosophical difference with human chess. Opening theory is super critical, if both players "agree" to battle on a very popular and contended opening. If one of them chooses to deviate early, the importance of opening preparation diminishes. I think that it is a mistake to think that having a "killer book" is a safe advantage. Killer books can die by the sword, since they are playing by the sword. Once you start playing that game, yes, a good book is not enough, you need something even better. IMHO, that is why there is a perception that a book is too critical.

What it is always important (same as humans) is to tailor the book to the style of the engine, and no public book will do that (coming back to the point I was trying to make before).

Miguel

It comes down to what the tournament rules are. I do not think there is a clear right or wrong here, just our opinions.

This is a factor in almost every kind of sport/contest. I like tennis myself but in the past there has been controversy over the logistics of it. Are you measuring the talent and skill of the players and to what extent do you try to standardize the equipment? The dimensions and characterstics of the courts, the balls, the rackets all play a part. In golf the top golfers can afford equipment that perhaps gives them a bit of an additional advantage over players like you and I. Of course in Nascar it's a huge issue and there are all kinds of rules but it still comes down to money and not just the skill of the driver (and the teams involved.)

I guess I take the point of view that it's pretty difficult to administer a huge set of rules and regulations about what you can and cannot do so that it's simpler to just say bring whatever you can muster and loosen the restrictions as much as reasonably possible. There is also the argument that if you restrict anything you limit the strength, and most people would like to see the highest quality play possible.

[michiguel]

You can say the same with the hardware. Cluster Sjeng wins CCT12 on 80 cores - who knows if on the machine you have at home, with 1,2,4 or 8 cores, it will be any good.

I believe the book is about 1000x more important than the hardware. Just look at some of the Eros Riccio games on Playchess.

Give me the hardware and I play 1.a3 and see what happens

Miguel

[Harvey Williamson]

It does not exist at the moment unless you want a very old one

The point is, you don't put those small killer CTG books in "the box" with H. When the CTG version of the H12 book eventually came out it was quite large, some 100's of mb's. I'm pretty sure Jeroen Noomen didn't put his tournament book in the Rybka box, only because he played different moves in his Freestyle games from what is in the Rybka books.

We will put the book that came 2nd in CCT, the most recent major tournament, or an improved version. Will Sjeng include the Cluster that played? Any Cluster will do I have already said if you want the CTG that played in Spain instead we can probably arrange it.

[garybelton]

I'm not sure what game you are referring to, the only problem games with the openings I saw were in the crafty game, where we offsided our queen and Thinker's good queen shuffle in his French.

The Sjeng blitz game, although claimed as a book win, both me, Rybka and a game from Playchess are not so sure. Komodo does have some problems handling the h5 push as black in the Sicilian at the moment. We had really good chances if Komodo had played 17 ...Nbxd5 (it played 17 ... Rac8 as it's first move out of book and quickly lost) but after 17 ...Nbxd5 Rybka human gives:

[+0.00] d=18 18.Bg5 Rac8 19.fxg6 fxg6 20.c3 Rfe8 21.c4 Nb6 22.Qxd6 Nxc4 23.Qxc7 Rxc7 24.Rc1 Rec8 25.Bf4 Rc6 26.Nd4 Rc5 27.Ne6 R5c6 28.Nd4 Rc5 29.Ne6 R5c6 30.Nd4 Rc5 31.Ne6 R5c6 32.Nd4 Rc5 33.Ne6 (0:03:17) 50388kN
[+0.00] d=17 18.Bg5 Rac8 19.fxg6 fxg6 20.c3 Rfe8 21.c4 Nb6 22.Qxd6 Nxc4 23.Qxc7 Rxc7 24.Rc1 Rec8 25.Bf4 Rc6 26.Nd4 Rc5 27.Ne6 R5c6 28.Nd4 Rc5 29.Ne6 R5c6 30.Nd4 Rc5 31.Ne6 R5c6 32.Nd4 Rc5 33.Ne6 (0:02:04) 30013kN
[+0.00] d=16 18.Bg5 Rac8 19.fxg6 fxg6 20.c3 Rfe8 21.c4 Nb6 22.Qxd6 Nxc4 23.Qxc7 Rxc7 24.Rc1 Rec8 25.Bf4 Rc6 26.Nd4 Rc5 27.Ne6 R5c6 28.Nd4 Rc5 29.Ne6 R5c6 30.Nd4 Rc5 31.Ne6 R5c6 32.Nd4 Rc5 33.Ne6 (0:01:30) 20497kN
[+0.00] d=15 18.Bg5 Rac8 19.fxg6 fxg6 20.c3 Rfe8 21.c4 Nb6 22.Qxd6 Nxc4 23.Qxc7 Rxc7 24.Rc1 Rec8 25.Bf4 Rc6 26.Nd4 Rc5 27.Ne6 R5c6 28.Nd4 Rc5 29.Ne6 R5c6 30.Nd4 Rc5 31.Ne6 R5c6 32.Nd4 Rc5 33.Ne6 (0:01:15) 16323kN
[+0.06] d=14 18.Bg5 (0:00:15) 1812kN
[+0.06] d=13 18.Bg5 (0:00:12) 1304kN
[+0.08] d=12 18.Bg5 (0:00:07) 717kN
[+0.17] d=11 18.Bg5 (0:00:03) 162kN
[+0.23] d=10 18.Bg5 (0:00:02) 1kN
[+0.05] d=9 18.Bg5 (0:00:00) 0kN
[+0.05] d=8 18.Bg5 (0:00:00) 0kN

And this is a win for black with it 17 ...Nbxd5

[Event "PCC"]
[Site "Badalona"]
[Date "2010.01.24"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Cryptonite, Rybka 3"]
[Black "Nafanja, Rybka 3"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B90"]
[WhiteElo "2472"]
[BlackElo "2646"]
[Annotator "0.20;-0.08"]
[PlyCount "124"]
[EventDate "2010.01.08"]
[EventType "blitz"]
[EventCountry "ESP"]
[TimeControl "180"]

1. e4 {B 0} c5 {B 0} 2. Nf3 {B 0} d6 {B 0} 3. d4 {B 0} cxd4 {B 0} 4. Nxd4 {B 0}
Nf6 {B 0} 5. Nc3 {B 0} a6 {B 0} 6. Be3 {B 0} e5 {B 0} 7. Nb3 {B 0} Be6 {B 0} 8.
f3 {B 0} h5 {B 0} 9. Qd2 {B 0} Nbd7 {B 0} 10. Nd5 {B 0} Bxd5 {B 0} 11. exd5 {
B 0} g6 {B 0} 12. Be2 {B 0} Bg7 {B 0} 13. O-O-O {B 0} O-O {B 0} 14. h4 {B 0} e4
{B 0} 15. Kb1 {0.20/13 6} Qc7 {B 0} 16. f4 {B 0} Nb6 {-0.08/14 5} 17. f5 {B 0
(Ôa5)} Nbxd5 {0.03/14 5} 18. Bd4 {B 0 (Ñg5)} Rae8 {-0.15/15 7} 19. Bxf6 {0.07/
12 4} Nxf6 {-0.11/18 3} 20. fxg6 {0.07/13 2} fxg6 {-0.11/18 29} 21. Qxd6 {0.00/
16 0} Rf7 {-0.11/18 14} 22. Qb4 {0.06/13 3 (Ôxc7)} Kh7 {-0.25/14 3} 23. Rhe1 {
-0.12/13 17} Qg3 {-0.51/16 4} 24. Nc5 {0.08/12 3 (Ëd8)} Rc7 {-0.54/15 3} 25.
Nb3 {-0.69/13 21 (Ôb3)} Qxh4 {-0.98/13 2} 26. Qa5 {-0.69/12 16} Qg3 {-1.22/17 5
} 27. Rh1 {-0.99/14 11} Rf7 {-1.50/15 8} 28. Nd4 {-0.86/11 3} Ng4 {-1.61/16 15}
29. Rde1 {-1.20/10 3 (Ôe1)} Ne3 {-1.59/12 1} 30. c3 {-1.10/11 3} Ree7 {-1.50/
13 2} 31. Qb4 {-1.26/10 5 (a3)} b5 {-1.90/13 4} 32. a4 {-1.40/11 0 (Êc6)} Nxg2
{-2.25/12 2} 33. Reg1 {-1.09/12 9} Qf2 {-2.27/14 0} 34. Qd6 {-1.29/12 9 (Ñxh5)}
Nf4 {-1.43/11 3} 35. Rxg6 {-1.29/12 6} Nxg6 {-1.30/15 6} 36. Bxh5 {-1.36/13 2}
Bf6 {-1.60/15 1} 37. axb5 {-1.36/13 6 (Êf5)} axb5 {-1.96/12 2} 38. Nf5 {-1.36/
13 0} Re5 {-1.97/13 0} 39. Bd1+ {-1.34/13 6 (Ñe2+)} Kg8 {-2.27/12 1} 40. Qb8+ {
-1.40/13 4} Nf8 {-2.27/16 1} 41. Nh6+ {-1.36/14 5} Kg7 {-2.27/17 1} 42. Nxf7 {
-1.36/14 4} Kxf7 {-2.27/17 6} 43. Qb7+ {-1.36/14 0} Be7 {-2.27/17 9} 44. Qb8 {
-1.42/14 0} Qc5 {-2.35/13 1} 45. Bb3+ {-1.42/14 4} Kg7 {-2.43/17 3} 46. Qe8 {
-1.42/14 0} Rf5 {-2.43/16 2} 47. Bc2 {-1.47/10 1} Rf4 {-2.33/15 3} 48. b4 {-1.
60/11 0} Qg5 {-2.39/15 1} 49. Re1 {-1.67/11 0} e3 {-2.39/14 1} 50. Bd3 {-1.76/
11 0} Rf3 {-2.42/14 1} 51. Bxb5 {-1.70/10 1 (Ôc6)} Qf5+ {-3.22/10 1} 52. Kc1 {
-1.99/10 1 (Kða1)} Ng6 {-3.65/12 1} 53. Be2 {-2.59/11 0} Rf2 {-3.76/14 1} 54.
Qb5 {-2.59/10 3} Qf6 {-4.49/14 0} 55. Qc4 {-3.32/10 1 (Ôd3)} Bxb4 {-4.28/11 1}
56. Kc2 {-3.53/11 0 (Ôxb4)} Ba5 {-4.37/11 0} 57. Qc5 {-3.60/11 0 (Ôd3)} Qe5 {
-4.83/11 0} 58. Qxe5+ {-3.76/12 0} Nxe5 {-5.32/15 1} 59. Kb3 {-3.76/15 2 (Kðd1)
} Kf6 {-5.23/14 1} 60. Bb5 {-4.56/13 0} Bb6 {-5.65/14 1} 61. Ra1 {-4.56/13 2
(Ëh1)} Kg5 {-5.86/14 1} 62. Ra6 {-5.27/12 1 Cryptonite,Rybka 3 resigns (Lag:
Av=0.49s, max=2.3s)} Bd8 {-5.93/13 1} 0-1

Probably needs a really big IDeA to prove things one way or another.

[garybelton]

Any Cluster will do I have already said if you want the CTG that played in Spain instead we can probably arrange it.

Cheers please email to garybelton27@gREMOVEmail.com.