Houdini-Rybka (150m + 30s) LIVE! - TCEC Elite Match Season 1

[S.Taylor]

I hear! I don't suspect manipulation here (but if had been able to watch the games in progress, i would have found it interesting to speculate), however it looks INCREDIBLE how many draws suddenly happen.
[the way you describe that game of Houdini being 4 pawns down, seems fascinating, however i was not able to watch the game, unfortunately].
I would agree it is better for a top program to draw MANY, than to lose ANY. Great that it has only lost one.

[Houdini]

[the way you describe that game of Houdini being 4 pawns down, seems fascinating, however i was not able to watch the game, unfortunately].

You still can play it at the TCEC web site http://www.tcec-chess.org/elite_match.php , simply select Game 17 in the drop-down menu and enjoy the fireworks...

Robert

[Rolf]

[the way you describe that game of Houdini being 4 pawns down, seems fascinating, however i was not able to watch the game, unfortunately].

You still can play it at the TCEC web site http://www.tcec-chess.org/elite_match.php , simply select Game 17 in the drop-down menu and enjoy the fireworks...

Robert

Simon, let me help you. Perhaps you must fix the colors in your browser because the link is just in pale blue. If you have the actual game on the display, take a look almost right in the middle between the nice avatars of the two players. There is a package of links, pgn of this game, pgn of all games. You get a text with unreadable moves. Game 17 is almost on the middle again of the whole page.

A general hint to all.

The actual game on Martin's page is a historical breakthrough, because Rybka has advantage of a single pawn and the scores are:

Eval of R4 330. something while H1.5 is sceptical after the many missed chances by R4 and it gives only an eval of 4.4 which has now come to 5.3 against itself.

This isnt a surprise if you remember that the founder of the Houdini chess family was a guy who even didnt stop breathing when he already was buried in a coffin some feets under the green of the cemetary. This isnt hearsay but it's a true story about the late Houdini! I was eyewitness on the scene, see the proof on Wiki with our photo and names, Houdini and Rolfe, which is the French version of my name. Hope this helps.

[Laskos]

Nothing wrong with the position 4, 24, where both Houdini and Rybka won with white. In 200 games at 30s + 3s between Houdini and Rybka

White Perf. : 53.5 %
Black Perf. : 46.5 %

A perfectly normal performance.

Kai

[beram]

Here a little comment on game 24, the first convincing win by Rybka

This position occured in 24 game
[d] r2qr1k1/1p2ppbp/2p2np1/5b2/1BPP4/P4NP1/3Q1PBP/3RR1K1 b - - 0 22
A decisive position is reached; Houdini thinks "too long" here, much better is Qc7 as espected by R4. After Qd7 he leaves his queen placed on the dangerous d-file, where white is planning a breakthrough with d5, after he has placed his queen to a good spot from aside

24: Rybka 4.0 - Houdini 1.5a, TCEC - Elite Match - S1 2011
r2qr1k1/1p2ppbp/2p2np1/5b2/1BPP4/P4NP1/3Q1PBP/3RR1K1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Houdini 1.5 w32: at depth 21 on my dualcore laptop w32 doesn't show Qd7 at all in the three best.
1. = (0.09): 22...Qc7 23.Qe2 Qc8 24.Qb2 Qc7 25.h3 Nd7 26.Qb3 c5 27.dxc5 Nxc5 28.Qe3 Na6 29.Nd4 Nxb4 30.axb4 Bd7 31.Nb5 Bxb5 32.cxb5 e6 33.b6 Qe7 34.Qc5 Bf6 35.Qc7 Rab8 36.Qxe7 Bxe7
2. = (0.18): 22...Nd7 23.d5 c5 24.Bc3 Bxc3 25.Qxc3 Nf6 26.Qb2 Qd6 27.Re3 Ra4 28.Ne5 Nd7 29.Nxd7 Bxd7 30.Bf1 Raa8 31.Rb1 Bf5 32.Bd3
3. = (0.20): 22...Bf8 23.Qe3 Qc7 24.h3 h5 25.d5 Be4 26.dxc6 bxc6 27.Ng5 Bf5 28.Rd2 Bh6 29.h4 Nd7 30.Ne6 Bxe6 31.Qxh6 Bxc4 32.Rxe7 Rxe7 33.Bxe7 Re8

But more amazing is a lack in evaluation of the won rook endgame, which Houdini doesn't recognize:
[d] 8/1R6/r3kpp1/7p/P7/6P1/5P1P/6K1 w - - 0 44

incredible that H15 in this position still thinks white is only +0,3 better, because in fact he is lost here. This is a rather common and known won endgame for the rook with extra free a-pawn. The white king can attack on the kingside pawns, while black is bound on the a-pawn.

kind regards, Bram

[Jouni]

One observation: Houdini uses in many games clearly less time than Rybka and around move 40 has 1 hour more in clock. Even in some won games it still has 1 hour to use!

Jouni

[Uri Blass]

Here a little comment on game 24, the first convincing win by Rybka

This position occured in 24 game
[d] r2qr1k1/1p2ppbp/2p2np1/5b2/1BPP4/P4NP1/3Q1PBP/3RR1K1 b - - 0 22
A decisive position is reached; Houdini thinks "too long" here, much better is Qc7 as espected by R4. After Qd7 he leaves his queen placed on the dangerous d-file, where white is planning a breakthrough with d5, after he has placed his queen to a good spot from aside

24: Rybka 4.0 - Houdini 1.5a, TCEC - Elite Match - S1 2011
r2qr1k1/1p2ppbp/2p2np1/5b2/1BPP4/P4NP1/3Q1PBP/3RR1K1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Houdini 1.5 w32: at depth 21 on my dualcore laptop w32 doesn't show Qd7 at all in the three best.
1. = (0.09): 22...Qc7 23.Qe2 Qc8 24.Qb2 Qc7 25.h3 Nd7 26.Qb3 c5 27.dxc5 Nxc5 28.Qe3 Na6 29.Nd4 Nxb4 30.axb4 Bd7 31.Nb5 Bxb5 32.cxb5 e6 33.b6 Qe7 34.Qc5 Bf6 35.Qc7 Rab8 36.Qxe7 Bxe7
2. = (0.18): 22...Nd7 23.d5 c5 24.Bc3 Bxc3 25.Qxc3 Nf6 26.Qb2 Qd6 27.Re3 Ra4 28.Ne5 Nd7 29.Nxd7 Bxd7 30.Bf1 Raa8 31.Rb1 Bf5 32.Bd3
3. = (0.20): 22...Bf8 23.Qe3 Qc7 24.h3 h5 25.d5 Be4 26.dxc6 bxc6 27.Ng5 Bf5 28.Rd2 Bh6 29.h4 Nd7 30.Ne6 Bxe6 31.Qxh6 Bxc4 32.Rxe7 Rxe7 33.Bxe7 Re8

But more amazing is a lack in evaluation of the won rook endgame, which Houdini doesn't recognize:
[d] 8/1R6/r3kpp1/7p/P7/6P1/5P1P/6K1 w - - 0 44

incredible that H15 in this position still thinks white is only +0,3 better, because in fact he is lost here. This is a rather common and known won endgame for the rook with extra free a-pawn. The white king can attack on the kingside pawns, while black is bound on the a-pawn.

kind regards, Bram

The incredible thing is that you think that houdini is supposed to know that black is lost here.

I do not know it
I see that white is a pawn up in rook endgame when the rook is not behind
the pawn.

I know that rook endgames are often drawn.

common and known win endgame?
I do not get rook endgames in most of my games and when I get them I usuallly get different positions.

[beram]

Here a little comment on game 24, the first convincing win by Rybka

This position occured in 24 game
[d] r2qr1k1/1p2ppbp/2p2np1/5b2/1BPP4/P4NP1/3Q1PBP/3RR1K1 b - - 0 22
A decisive position is reached; Houdini thinks "too long" here, much better is Qc7 as espected by R4. After Qd7 he leaves his queen placed on the dangerous d-file, where white is planning a breakthrough with d5, after he has placed his queen to a good spot from aside

24: Rybka 4.0 - Houdini 1.5a, TCEC - Elite Match - S1 2011
r2qr1k1/1p2ppbp/2p2np1/5b2/1BPP4/P4NP1/3Q1PBP/3RR1K1 b - - 0 1

Analysis by Houdini 1.5 w32: at depth 21 on my dualcore laptop w32 doesn't show Qd7 at all in the three best.
1. = (0.09): 22...Qc7 23.Qe2 Qc8 24.Qb2 Qc7 25.h3 Nd7 26.Qb3 c5 27.dxc5 Nxc5 28.Qe3 Na6 29.Nd4 Nxb4 30.axb4 Bd7 31.Nb5 Bxb5 32.cxb5 e6 33.b6 Qe7 34.Qc5 Bf6 35.Qc7 Rab8 36.Qxe7 Bxe7
2. = (0.18): 22...Nd7 23.d5 c5 24.Bc3 Bxc3 25.Qxc3 Nf6 26.Qb2 Qd6 27.Re3 Ra4 28.Ne5 Nd7 29.Nxd7 Bxd7 30.Bf1 Raa8 31.Rb1 Bf5 32.Bd3
3. = (0.20): 22...Bf8 23.Qe3 Qc7 24.h3 h5 25.d5 Be4 26.dxc6 bxc6 27.Ng5 Bf5 28.Rd2 Bh6 29.h4 Nd7 30.Ne6 Bxe6 31.Qxh6 Bxc4 32.Rxe7 Rxe7 33.Bxe7 Re8

But more amazing is a lack in evaluation of the won rook endgame, which Houdini doesn't recognize:
[d] 8/1R6/r3kpp1/7p/P7/6P1/5P1P/6K1 w - - 0 44

incredible that H15 in this position still thinks white is only +0,3 better, because in fact he is lost here. This is a rather common and known won endgame for the rook with extra free a-pawn. The white king can attack on the kingside pawns, while black is bound on the a-pawn.

kind regards, Bram

The incredible thing is that you think that houdini is supposed to know that black is lost here.
What I mean is that Rybka evals this more realisticly as 1.15 better for white.

I do not know it
You are just human
I see that white is a pawn up in rook endgame when the rook is not behind
the pawn.

I know that rook endgames are often drawn. really ?
common and known win endgame?
just search your database for GM games with this type of endgame
I do not get rook endgames in most of my games and when I get them I usuallly get different positions.
You are just one person

[Houdini]

One observation: Houdini uses in many games clearly less time than Rybka and around move 40 has 1 hour more in clock. Even in some won games it still has 1 hour to use!

Jouni

Yes, Houdini is too conservative with its time usage, I will certainly adapt this for Houdini 2.0. In most middle games of the match Houdini is actually playing with a time handicap!

It's funny to see how a lot of people that follow the match at ChessBomb fail to understand that good TM means that you're supposed to have used up the time on your clock by the end of the game. They see Houdini with a lot of time left on the clock and Rybka with little time left, and conclude that Houdini must have "good TM" and Rybka "very bad TM", when it's in fact the opposite.

Robert

[Houdini]

incredible that H15 in this position still thinks white is only +0,3 better, because in fact he is lost here. This is a rather common and known won endgame for the rook with extra free a-pawn. The white king can attack on the kingside pawns, while black is bound on the a-pawn.

kind regards, Bram

Houdini doesn't recognize this particular position, and evaluates this as a standard rook ending with an extra pawn.
Most of the 4 pawns vs 3 pawns rook endings are actually draw, so a +0,3 eval makes sense (in the general case).

Robert