Novag Citrine

[IanO]

The Hitatchi/Renasys H8 microprocessor is fun to program at the assembly language level. Old pdp11 programmers will feel at home and those doing assembly coding for less orthogonal CPUs will feel a relief.

But having coded a Z80 chess program and all of the bitboard parts of an Motorola 68020 chess program, the most important thing I've leaned is to not do any more chess programs in assembler. Modern compilers are just too good at optimization.

Looks like the SuperH line would be powerful enough to make a solid senior master program (at least). It might be able to run some older H8 programs too.

The SH7034 (based on the first SuperH-1 architecture) running at 20MHz is inside the strongest of Franz Morsch's dedicateds: Mephisto Atlanta, Magellan, and Master Chess. The older H8 and H8S are in Novag's and Excalibur's units.

However, there isn't much of a business case these days to make a mass-market dedicated stronger than master strength. Nor is there much of a case to license a new engine just to get some variety. The few remaining dedicateds are using decade-old engines from Morsch, Kittinger, and Nelson. It saddens me that there is so little variety left in this market. It was killed by the PC, and now buried deeper by cell phones and iPods.

[Steve B]

AND ..soon to be announced..
NEVER before seen since the first commercial release of dedicated chess computers...34 years ago...

I Can Say No More Regards
Steve

http://74.220.23.57/forum/viewtopic.php?p=400691#400691
Steve

[sje]

It saddens me that there is so little variety left in this market. It was killed by the PC, and now buried deeper by cell phones and iPods.

The manufacturers must share some of the responsibility for this. Years ago, Novag produced the Constellation and Super Constellation (I bought one of the latter), and while these machines were relatively expensive, the prices were in a sense proportional to the computational capacities and the incremental strengths and features of the programs. This is no longer true. Today, the programs are old and the costs of the CPU and memory are a very small fraction of the prices. Examples: Novag's 2Robot has only a 4 KB program and costs US$250 and their Citrine has a US$5 CPU but costs $350.

For the kinds of prices being charged, both of the above machines should be sporting 2400+ elo programs and wireless connectivity.

[mhull]

It saddens me that there is so little variety left in this market. It was killed by the PC, and now buried deeper by cell phones and iPods.

The manufacturers must share some of the responsibility for this. Years ago, Novag produced the Constellation and Super Constellation (I bought one of the latter), and while these machines were relatively expensive, the prices were in a sense proportional to the computational capacities and the incremental strengths and features of the programs. This is no longer true. Today, the programs are old and the costs of the CPU and memory are a very small fraction of the prices. Examples: Novag's 2Robot has only a 4 KB program and costs US$250 and their Citrine has a US$5 CPU but costs $350.

For the kinds of prices being charged, both of the above machines should be sporting 2400+ elo programs and wireless connectivity.

It's probably a function of volume. The cost of components is not the issue, but the cost of manufacture, labor and such. You can't get the cost down without relatively high volume.

[sje]

For the kinds of prices being charged, both of the above machines should be sporting 2400+ elo programs and wireless connectivity.

It's probably a function of volume. The cost of components is not the issue, but the cost of manufacture, labor and such. You can't get the cost down without relatively high volume.

The cost of manufacturing is cost of parts plus cost of labor plus cost of licensing plus some fixed overhead. Increasing the parts manifest by adding a single module WiFi transceiver is a very small cost increase, only a few dollars regardless of volume. The same goes for a faster microprocessor or a larger memory. And there are strong programs for free.

I think a larger market and somewhat larger profits could be made by increasing functionality and or decreasing prices. The profits wouldn't be a large as in the old days due to competitive multipurpose devices, but there would still be profits.

[Steve B]

It saddens me that there is so little variety left in this market. It was killed by the PC, and now buried deeper by cell phones and iPods.

The manufacturers must share some of the responsibility for this. Years ago, Novag produced the Constellation and Super Constellation (I bought one of the latter), and while these machines were relatively expensive, the prices were in a sense proportional to the computational capacities and the incremental strengths and features of the programs. This is no longer true. Today, the programs are old and the costs of the CPU and memory are a very small fraction of the prices. Examples: Novag's 2Robot has only a 4 KB program and costs US$250 and their Citrine has a US$5 CPU but costs $350.

For the kinds of prices being charged, both of the above machines should be sporting 2400+ elo programs and wireless connectivity.

Its true that in the two examples you sited ..they ought to play stronger ..however in these two particular models the price incorporates something else and they should not be judged on price/strength alone
The 2Robot is only the second Robotic arm computer ever released for sale..and the novelty of that alone is well worth the price to collectors
the first armed Robot was also sold by Novag back in 1981 and it sold for about $2000
$250 was a price that amazed collectors regardless of strength
the first Robot played at around 1400 Elo

The Citrine's price includes the fact that it is a wooden auto sensory ..in fact the first NEW wooden board released for sale in 10 years
Collectors bought it like hot cakes for that reason alone ..not to mention that it could also interface with Arena(which i personally have no interest in)
this makes the Citrine a low cost alternative to the DGT board

basically your right about the ridiculously low strength of dedicated computers for the price..but these two models are not good examples of that
Regards
Steve

[sje]

Well, *my* Citrine does not have a wooden board. It does have a nice decal of a wooden board. So that's not really a big cost factor.

The 2Robot would e a lot more tempting if it had a means of connecting to a computer as does the Citrine.

[Steve B]

Well, *my* Citrine does not have a wooden board. It does have a nice decal of a wooden board. So that's not really a big cost factor.

Well..Try a few hammer blows to the side of the board
tell me what chips away
plastic or wood?
Steve

[Larry]

That's what caught my eye initially. Was tinkering with Arena when I saw it supported Novags.

-Josh

Not any Novag, just the Citrine, Josh
Larry

[IanO]

Well, *my* Citrine does not have a wooden board. It does have a nice decal of a wooden board. So that's not really a big cost factor.

The 2Robot would e a lot more tempting if it had a means of connecting to a computer as does the Citrine.

Yesterday I saw a Citrine for the first time at a charity auction. It is a lot smaller and chintzier in person than on the internet. For some reason, I pictured it in my head as the size of the old Auto Response Board. The rest of the crowd wasn't very impressed either; it ended up going for the first bid at half the retail price.

Interestingly, I talked to others at the auction who would have bid double that for something that looked a little more prestigious, regardless of strength. There were plain old wooden boards and pieces that went for over $500! Sounds like a hole in the market to me.