I Thought There Was Already Too Much Confusion

[geots]

Maybe it was because I was looking for logos and loading chess engines that I should have done a year ago, but I thought about a program and wondered why it had won a championship, but I couldn't remember its name. And had heard no one else on any forum talking about it. So the best I can tell you is the more I thought about it, the more I wanted to take a look at it.

It just hit me and I remembered when we were discussing on RF last week the state of computer chess in general, and Rybka in particular, Zach made the comment that he had not seen a trophy yet. I'm thinking what trophy, and he goes on and explains to whoever asked- about his program that moved to champion of some tourney- after Rybka was moved aside.

I could not remember the name, and I asked Graham. So he tells me the name is Rondo. Wonderful. I have been out of the testing loop for close to 2 years, so what the hell do I know. I asked him if Zach changed the name of ZCT (Zach's Chess Test) to Rondo. Nope.

I wanted a copy to test, and that was when he told me they did not test private versions any longer, and he had not even seen a copy. I tell him I heard the name once and couldn't remember it- so how do I miss all the excitement and why I'm the only person who hasn't been aware of it setting the chess community on fire. I'm sorta stunned- it is obvious he has plenty of knowledge in these areas, but he didn't exactly have to worry about anyone RE ZCT to learn his secrets.

And unless this program had been a well hidden secret for a good while- his speed to the top made Vas look like a turtle with arthritis. So Graham said he didn't exactly start from scratch. If you know Graham, prying info out of him is like pulling teeth. So I asked him exactly where did he start.

So I am told that Rondo is sort of like, whatever the hell "sort of like" is- anyway, he tells me that it is sort of "Zappa under development with the name changed to Rondo." Of course- now being just a little curious- I asked him what the hell Zach had to do with Zappa.

You believe he told me they had something in common- both names start with the letter "Z". Just a joke- I couldn't resist it. Seriously, he told me that Zach bought the rights- bought as in paid money??- to the program that is "sort of Zappa" and "sort of" evidently already pretty close to an area that wasn't light years from a championship when he bought the rights to it. Now I know all Graham knew- which isn't much.

Look, the CC community has problems- none the least of which is how the hell you win without putting your program and yourself in danger from more than enough people with more than enough ability to RE it, and find out whatever they are looking for. Maybe it doesn't hurt as much if you don't have the time invested like all the guys I know that do.

Look, I'm not throwing shots around at anyone. And I don't have a problem with Zach. And if what is actually going on is a sort of partnership between Cozzie and Zach, ok- maybe Zach just got lucky and got in when most of the work had already be done. A "sort of" deal like Larry and Dailey have going.

But when he was talking to whoever it was I don't remember, he did say that he was supposed to get a trophy, but he hadn't seen it yet. It was sort of "I this" and "me that"- I didn't hear any "me and Cozzie". I won't make a joke here and say Rondo is short for Rondolitto, because the air is already electrically charged enough. But you just try adding "litto" to the end of his ZCT program- a tongue twister.

But if a partnership of some sort or some kind is what this is- I couldn't be happier for the two. Because I just DO NOT know, and I am not going to rush to judgment.

But I will say if, and ONLY IF, no matter how you cut it- it turns out to be buying the rights to a program already in development and just changing the name- if this is what the CC community has become- then you are a hop,skip and a jump from seeing rights to chess programs under development being bought and sold on ebay. And you just thought you had problems with the Ippos.

But there is something I am missing here. I am still going to keep a positive attitude about this deal until I am convinced otherwise. I mean I don't even want to think in that direction. That is a hell of a can of worms that needs the top kept on it.

gs

[trojanfoe]

What's the issue? A chess engine is a piece of intellectual property like any piece of software so what's the problem with buying and selling that property?

[geots]

What's the issue? A chess engine is a piece of intellectual property like any piece of software so what's the problem with buying and selling that property?

You are kidding right. I am not talking about the definition of property, and you lose me when you get to the word intellectual. Sorry, but that's life. A place where forever, good people have almost sweated blood to create something they would not make a dime off of, ever. I'm real sorry here, but before I took a break from testing with CCRL any of them and many freeware authors will tell you I took great pride in testing free engines, and they were my favorites. Sure, we have some authors who are proud of what they have done, and they enjoy it. Even tho they know they will most likely never see the top and 60 bucks per program. Not why they do it. But you probably don't care about that. And there are plenty of them that could goddam well buy their way to the top, if they chose to. But don't come on here with talk that is like a slap in the face to them. They are not interested in "buying results". They prefer the old fashioned way- they earn it.

I am not saying Zach feels any diff. from them. I'm not talking to Zach right now- I'm talking to you.

[Steve B]

Nothing out of the ordinary here George
Zach announced way back in June 2010 he had acquired the rights to Zappa from Cozzie and had worked on it and was entering it in the 2010 WCCCC

There are several threads about this here which any simple search can find
heres one:

http://74.220.23.57/forum/viewtopic.php ... ight=rondo

Perfectly above board Regards
Steve

[trojanfoe]

A place where forever, good people have almost sweated blood to create something they would not make a dime off of, ever. I'm real sorry here, but before I took a break from testing with CCRL any of them and many freeware authors will tell you I took great pride in testing free engines, and they were my favorites. Sure, we have some authors who are proud of what they have done, and they enjoy it. Even tho they know they will most likely never see the top and 60 bucks per program. Not why they do it. But you probably don't care about that. And there are plenty of them that could goddam well buy their way to the top, if they chose to. But don't come on here with talk that is like a slap in the face to them. They are not interested in "buying results". They prefer the old fashioned way- they earn it.

Again, this is no different to other areas of software - many people (myself included) have written software and given it away for nothing with no expectation of financial return. What is so different with a chess engine?

[hgm]

Just look at Rondo's entry to WCCC 2010 on the ICGA website ( http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/program.php?id=58 ) It says:

Code: Select all

Authors
Person         Role              Comment 
Anthony Cozzie engine programmer  
Zach Wegner    engine programmer since 2010  
Erdogan Günes  book author       2007  

So now what is so difficult to understand about this?

Zach was the active team member, present at the site and operating Rondo. His address was on the entry form. So ICGA will contact him if there are any trophees to ship.

It seems you are just trolling here...

[geots]

Nothing out of the ordinary here George
Zach announced way back in June 2010 he had acquired the rights to Zappa from Cozzie and had worked on it and was entering it in the 2010 WCCCC

There are several threads about this here which any simple search can find
heres one:

http://74.220.23.57/forum/viewtopic.php ... ight=rondo

Perfectly above board Regards
Steve

Then you understand my problem- sometimes "simple" can be a long reach up for me

Best,

[geots]

Just look at Rondo's entry to WCCC 2010 on the ICGA website ( http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/program.php?id=58 ) It says:

Code: Select all

Authors
Person         Role              Comment 
Anthony Cozzie engine programmer  
Zach Wegner    engine programmer since 2010  
Erdogan Günes  book author       2007  

So now what is so difficult to understand about this?

Zach was the active team member, present at the site and operating Rondo. His address was on the entry form. So ICGA will contact him if there are any trophees to ship.

It seems you are just trolling here...

Look, I see they removed my response to you, and I know why. It was on the fence, could have gone either way. So I will not include it again. It bothers me that the mods we have now, even tho they don't have to evidently- don't even have enough respect for me to pm me and explain it. Even if I know. Bob doesn't deal with that, Fern is gone so much, and Roger absolutely cannot stand me. So I am out of luck there.

Back to my response. I did not ask if he was an engineer with Cozzie. I did not ask who operated Rondo or where Zach was. I did not ask if his name was on the entry form. If you read my thread, you knew my main question- and for lack of a better description, you ignored it. I asked if he was now in a partnership with Cozzie, or did he pay Cozzie to make the development his and his only. Meaning now Zappa (Rondo) is his.

I have an EXTREMELY good reason for wanting to know, but that will be, and should be, between him and me. It doesn't need to be discussed on a open forum.

Lastly, the troll bit was uncalled for. I had no idea that when I wrote, that everyone knew what was going on with the issue BUT me. Trolls aggravate for no reason. I have a reason behind everything I do. I am not disappointed in you because I know you, and it did not surprise me one bit.

[bob]

Maybe it was because I was looking for logos and loading chess engines that I should have done a year ago, but I thought about a program and wondered why it had won a championship, but I couldn't remember its name. And had heard no one else on any forum talking about it. So the best I can tell you is the more I thought about it, the more I wanted to take a look at it.

It just hit me and I remembered when we were discussing on RF last week the state of computer chess in general, and Rybka in particular, Zach made the comment that he had not seen a trophy yet. I'm thinking what trophy, and he goes on and explains to whoever asked- about his program that moved to champion of some tourney- after Rybka was moved aside.

I could not remember the name, and I asked Graham. So he tells me the name is Rondo. Wonderful. I have been out of the testing loop for close to 2 years, so what the hell do I know. I asked him if Zach changed the name of ZCT (Zach's Chess Test) to Rondo. Nope.

I wanted a copy to test, and that was when he told me they did not test private versions any longer, and he had not even seen a copy. I tell him I heard the name once and couldn't remember it- so how do I miss all the excitement and why I'm the only person who hasn't been aware of it setting the chess community on fire. I'm sorta stunned- it is obvious he has plenty of knowledge in these areas, but he didn't exactly have to worry about anyone RE ZCT to learn his secrets.

And unless this program had been a well hidden secret for a good while- his speed to the top made Vas look like a turtle with arthritis. So Graham said he didn't exactly start from scratch. If you know Graham, prying info out of him is like pulling teeth. So I asked him exactly where did he start.

So I am told that Rondo is sort of like, whatever the hell "sort of like" is- anyway, he tells me that it is sort of "Zappa under development with the name changed to Rondo." Of course- now being just a little curious- I asked him what the hell Zach had to do with Zappa.

You believe he told me they had something in common- both names start with the letter "Z". Just a joke- I couldn't resist it. Seriously, he told me that Zach bought the rights- bought as in paid money??- to the program that is "sort of Zappa" and "sort of" evidently already pretty close to an area that wasn't light years from a championship when he bought the rights to it. Now I know all Graham knew- which isn't much.

Look, the CC community has problems- none the least of which is how the hell you win without putting your program and yourself in danger from more than enough people with more than enough ability to RE it, and find out whatever they are looking for. Maybe it doesn't hurt as much if you don't have the time invested like all the guys I know that do.

Look, I'm not throwing shots around at anyone. And I don't have a problem with Zach. And if what is actually going on is a sort of partnership between Cozzie and Zach, ok- maybe Zach just got lucky and got in when most of the work had already be done. A "sort of" deal like Larry and Dailey have going.

But when he was talking to whoever it was I don't remember, he did say that he was supposed to get a trophy, but he hadn't seen it yet. It was sort of "I this" and "me that"- I didn't hear any "me and Cozzie". I won't make a joke here and say Rondo is short for Rondolitto, because the air is already electrically charged enough. But you just try adding "litto" to the end of his ZCT program- a tongue twister.

But if a partnership of some sort or some kind is what this is- I couldn't be happier for the two. Because I just DO NOT know, and I am not going to rush to judgment.

But I will say if, and ONLY IF, no matter how you cut it- it turns out to be buying the rights to a program already in development and just changing the name- if this is what the CC community has become- then you are a hop,skip and a jump from seeing rights to chess programs under development being bought and sold on ebay. And you just thought you had problems with the Ippos.

But there is something I am missing here. I am still going to keep a positive attitude about this deal until I am convinced otherwise. I mean I don't even want to think in that direction. That is a hell of a can of worms that needs the top kept on it.

gs

The program was named "zappa". It has been around quite a while, written by Cozzie, and then Zach became involved and is the primary author with cozzie still in the background. Nothing mysterious at all, just a name change...

[mhull]

Maybe it was because I was looking for logos and loading chess engines that I should have done a year ago, but I thought about a program and wondered why it had won a championship, but I couldn't remember its name. And had heard no one else on any forum talking about it. So the best I can tell you is the more I thought about it, the more I wanted to take a look at it.

It just hit me and I remembered when we were discussing on RF last week the state of computer chess in general, and Rybka in particular, Zach made the comment that he had not seen a trophy yet. I'm thinking what trophy, and he goes on and explains to whoever asked- about his program that moved to champion of some tourney- after Rybka was moved aside.

I could not remember the name, and I asked Graham. So he tells me the name is Rondo. Wonderful. I have been out of the testing loop for close to 2 years, so what the hell do I know. I asked him if Zach changed the name of ZCT (Zach's Chess Test) to Rondo. Nope.

I wanted a copy to test, and that was when he told me they did not test private versions any longer, and he had not even seen a copy. I tell him I heard the name once and couldn't remember it- so how do I miss all the excitement and why I'm the only person who hasn't been aware of it setting the chess community on fire. I'm sorta stunned- it is obvious he has plenty of knowledge in these areas, but he didn't exactly have to worry about anyone RE ZCT to learn his secrets.

And unless this program had been a well hidden secret for a good while- his speed to the top made Vas look like a turtle with arthritis. So Graham said he didn't exactly start from scratch. If you know Graham, prying info out of him is like pulling teeth. So I asked him exactly where did he start.

So I am told that Rondo is sort of like, whatever the hell "sort of like" is- anyway, he tells me that it is sort of "Zappa under development with the name changed to Rondo." Of course- now being just a little curious- I asked him what the hell Zach had to do with Zappa.

You believe he told me they had something in common- both names start with the letter "Z". Just a joke- I couldn't resist it. Seriously, he told me that Zach bought the rights- bought as in paid money??- to the program that is "sort of Zappa" and "sort of" evidently already pretty close to an area that wasn't light years from a championship when he bought the rights to it. Now I know all Graham knew- which isn't much.

Look, the CC community has problems- none the least of which is how the hell you win without putting your program and yourself in danger from more than enough people with more than enough ability to RE it, and find out whatever they are looking for. Maybe it doesn't hurt as much if you don't have the time invested like all the guys I know that do.

Look, I'm not throwing shots around at anyone. And I don't have a problem with Zach. And if what is actually going on is a sort of partnership between Cozzie and Zach, ok- maybe Zach just got lucky and got in when most of the work had already be done. A "sort of" deal like Larry and Dailey have going.

But when he was talking to whoever it was I don't remember, he did say that he was supposed to get a trophy, but he hadn't seen it yet. It was sort of "I this" and "me that"- I didn't hear any "me and Cozzie". I won't make a joke here and say Rondo is short for Rondolitto, because the air is already electrically charged enough. But you just try adding "litto" to the end of his ZCT program- a tongue twister.

But if a partnership of some sort or some kind is what this is- I couldn't be happier for the two. Because I just DO NOT know, and I am not going to rush to judgment.

But I will say if, and ONLY IF, no matter how you cut it- it turns out to be buying the rights to a program already in development and just changing the name- if this is what the CC community has become- then you are a hop,skip and a jump from seeing rights to chess programs under development being bought and sold on ebay. And you just thought you had problems with the Ippos.

But there is something I am missing here. I am still going to keep a positive attitude about this deal until I am convinced otherwise. I mean I don't even want to think in that direction. That is a hell of a can of worms that needs the top kept on it.

gs

So you're cheesed that Zach "bought" himself a championship trophy while his competitors toil(ed) away in virtual anonymity. I understand your feelings perfectly. It's called envy. It's similar to envying people who've become rich by inheritance rather than "honest toil". This feeling is a common enough mental disease which one wouldn't mind you trying to spread so much if you weren't also infected with "incurable discursive inaniloquence".