Fwd: Open letter to the CSVN

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Marcel,

your short message give me hope.

If we look in the future of official tourneys "we" must learn from our mistakes and have to work on good solutions. The situation will be in the next years harder and harder (clone topics).

I hope too, that also the programmers which signature the open letter will support the tourney in Leiden. Not the people in Leiden have to search now the solution. I am sure next year in Leiden the situation can be solved.

Important is, that the programmers an users have fun in Leiden. Please not a artificial war.

Have a nice Sunday!

Best
Frank

[K I Hyams]

The statement about the engine that participated not being tested is not "FALSE". Why the hell do you want to twist the facts.

I sure hope you are not going to say that because a version has the Tablebases path hardcoded in the .exe that it makes it a clearly different engine...

Rybka 2.3.2a DID NOT participate in the ICGA and neither did Rybka 1.6 or Rybka 1.0 beta.

Ok I am trying to follow along here with the logic.... but it escapes me...

Rybka 2.3.2a DID NOT participate...

The only time Rybka 2.3.2a participated was for a few games when the Rybka that was playing the ICGA

The only time Rybka 2.3.2a participated was for a few games

So it did play...

...

(which was clearly different from Rybka 2.3.2a) was not able to connect due to some technical problems and thus a generic Rybka 2.3.2a on a laptop was used.

but the 2.3.2a version that played was clearly different from Rybka 2.3.2a.

So summing up...

Rybka 2.3.2a did not play... but it did play... but the 2.3.2a version that played was not the same as the 2.3.2a version that actually played...

Yes. the significant difference between the version of Rybka 2.3.2a that started the tournament and the one that was released and analysed by panel members was the means of addressing bases.

The only difference between your post, to which I am replying and a post which I started to write but abandoned was that I planned to deal with the issue of the tablebases at the end of my post, rather than the beginning. Apart from that, I isolated the same claims by Ansari and dealt with them in the same way.

I became aware of the fact that the 2 versions of Rybka 2.3.2a were effectively identical as a consequence of reading a statement to that effect by Lukas Cimiotti on the Rybka site, it may have been written in 2007 and may also have been quoted on the OpenChess site. I abandoned my post when a quick search for Cimiotti’s statement failed to unearth it. If you have it to hand, I would be grateful if you would post the URL.

Mr Cimiotti is a useful source of information. He also confirmed for us that, at the time that the panel requested the source code, Vas still had it in his possession and had not destroyed all of his previous versions, as at least one of his acolytes has claimed. When a subpoena is served, asking for the source, a claim that it was destroyed after the panel’s request for it will not be believed, if only because it means that he deliberately destroyed the proof of his innocence. I must also look for a record of that gem. Perhaps that was referenced on OpenChess as well.

[Robert Flesher]

Tell Cock he is an idiot.

Hmmmm....it seems Hyattian Oligarchy member Hyatt considers himself above the Computer-Chess Club Charter:

3. Do not contain personal and/or libelous attacks on others

Cordially,

Sean

In civil law "Slander" cannot be proven if the implied statements are true. Although there is alot of grey area here, the fact remains if Cock can be proven to be an idiot, there is no "Slander". Should a hooker be insulted if someone calls her a whore? Ever heard the term, "I call a spade a spade", this seems to apply. Capiche?

By your definition of the charter I can call you an arsehole and it will be within the CCC charter. Is that okay with you? I don't mind rebaptizing you!

Cordially,

Sean

Perhaps, you should read it again. I merely suggested what is and is not slander. Bob provided reasons as to why he believe "COCK" is an idiot. If his arguements were found to be reasonable, perhaps the statement could be truthful, and therefore not slander.


As pertaining to "arseholes", I would suggest you just visit your nearest mirror and have a looksee. Capiche?

Flesher you are an arsehole based on your own interpretation of the CCC charter. You want the title; therefore, you shall now be called arsehole hence forth.

Cordially,

Sean

Didn't like what you saw in the mirror? Grow up, and get back under your bridge troll.

[Robert Flesher]

Actually, instead of pointing a finger at Bob Hyatt let's look at who has a history of creating trouble in the CCC and other forums. You left openchess just prior to being banned. Since that occured we have had to tolerate you endless rants and attacks on members. It would seem this is your objective and clearly your modus operandi and has been for some time. Why the moderators have tolerated you is beyond my reckoning.


"Messages


Subject: Sean Evans

Author: Bruce Moreland

Date: 17:34:21 07/31/98

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The moderators of CCC have agreed that we need to delete Sean Evans' account.
Recently Sean posted a personal attack that we felt we needed to delete. At
that point he was warned not to do this again, but he did this again, so we
deleted the new post and his account.

I believe that this had to be done, because he was bringing the same sort of
environment to CCC that has caused many of us to receive less enjoyment from
rec.games.chess.computer.

I hope that the members will agree that this was the right thing to do.

bruce"

I encourage the moderators to read this archive and see what Mr. Evans was up to back then. What I find amusing is that he is back again trolling and insulting just as Christophe Theron predicted.

http://www.stmintz.com/ccc/index.php?id=23506


He was even insulting Bob Hyatt back then. I quote Bob regarding Sean Evans ban, "My only complaint is that it took you guys too long to reach this
obvious conclusion. His attacks against me were somewhat "minor" but
he *continually* made insulting remarks about Ed.

"about time" and "good work" I'd say..."



Enough said!

[geots]

Hi Uri,

I consider Vas to be a programmer and not a hacker / cloner.

accepted, I was always one of those that said we shouldn't forget Vas' achievements in computerchess - anyway, he is no longer acceptable in offical programmer computer chess tournaments as long he completely denies to coopertate in any form with the ICGA or the panel. I agree with Ed and others that a lifetime ban is way off, but to disqualify him from any tourneys he had played was the right thing.

I think that the case of Rybka is clearly in the grey area that means that there is no agreement between chess programmers if Vas is quilty.

You know the rules of the ICGA-events, do you ? And in case of qualified questions (and the result of the panel is VERY qualified) you have to ANSWER the questions or you get disqualified. There is no grey area. Still, this does not completely proof that he is quitly, but it does proof to 100% that he doesn't respect the rules.

I did not investigate the evidence but I understand that some programmers like Ed of Rebel and Chris of CStal read the evidence and it did not convince them that Vas is quilty.

as far as I know Ed himself believes that Vas is quilty but he has problems with the lifetime ban. And Chris ? Well, Twitty is almost against everything, whatever you bring up, Chris will be prepared for a "BUT".

It is not something clear like other cases(for example all agree that the similiarity between Toga and Fruit is bigger than the similiarity between Rybka and Fruit).

I tell you what I think how Rybka 1 might have been created: Fruit source on left monitor, blank page on right screen. Goal: translate Fruit to bitboard and optimize as much as possible. Of course later Rybkas got more and more different to that, but that's the start and at least there was enough of the Fruit body left in v2.3.2a (the newest one that was investigated) to see the origins. In the beginning I thought as well, that this can't be possible, nobody would base any commercial project on something like that. Well, it seems I was way to naive.

Greets, Thomas

I can't imagine what makes you think Ed believes he is guilty, unless you have been on Mars for the last 2 months. Let me ask you a question. Just a simple question. "Are their any programmers that you respect any more than you do Miguel Ballicora and Sven Schule? Or any that are any smarter? Put Whittington with them and make 3. How many of those 3 have you asked what they think of any of the evidence they have seen?
You haven't, have you?

Do me and yourself a favor. Don't expect them to spend much time down here- they say life is too short for that. But they are not hard to find. Talk with each of them, as well as Ed. Then you come back to me in private- thru a PM and tell me what you think after that. Ask Miguel about the dodging questions that has taken place when he got too close. Don't take my word for it- talk to him. You won't be quite as sure as you are now. Look, I have had programmers just as good as any you will ever find around here who have told me to just tell them what I want, and they will make the facts fit.

And some are critical of me because I don't take as the gospel what I hear from people I don't trust- and didn't trust before I had ever heard of Vas.

Not all of them, but enough.



gts

[bob]

Isn't really possible a way out? Something like Vas admitting his faults, sharing his future incomes with Fabien and Bob (or making the next Rybka an open source engine)?

If it's not possible to find a solution to such a little thing, what hopes has the mankind to solve complicated problems such as Middle East, and so on?

There are lots of possibilities if Vas agrees to talk to the ICGA. I doubt Bob is looking for any money.

As a public statement, I would not accept one cent from him. Under any circumstance. Period. That's not the point of this at all. It is to simply enforce the rules and encourage everyone ELSE to follow them explicitly...

[bob]

Isn't really possible a way out? Something like Vas admitting his faults, sharing his future incomes with Fabien and Bob (or making the next Rybka an open source engine)?

If it's not possible to find a solution to such a little thing, what hopes has the mankind to solve complicated problems such as Middle East, and so on?

There are lots of possibilities if Vas agrees to talk to the ICGA. I doubt Bob is looking for any money.

Maybe, Vas cannot talk to ICGA because he's afraid of a legal action. His declarations would equal to admit to be guilty, with all the consequences it implies.

If Fabien Letouzey and Bob Hyatt declare that they wouldn't start a court case against Vas if he admits his faults (but they'd start it if Vas doesn't), maybe Vas would decide to talk to ICGA and to clear everything...

Maybe.

I've already stated publicly that I have zero interest in pursuing a copyright infringement. Takes too much time, for too little return. Fabien, however, appears to feel differently...

[Don]

Robert,

I think this was something that was in the past and should be left there. That was a long time ago and nobody cares. Everybody makes minor mistakes in their lives (and most make pretty major ones) and deserves to be able to live it down - otherwise I'm sure there are people in your life who could "remember" every little embarrassing or wrong thing YOU ever did and bring it up over and over. This certainly isn't in the league of some major crime or anything so why bring it up?

[bob]

Tell Cock he is an idiot.

Hmmmm....it seems Hyattian Oligarchy member Hyatt considers himself above the Computer-Chess Club Charter:

3. Do not contain personal and/or libelous attacks on others

Cordially,

Sean

Is he a member here?

[Don]

P.S. I'm referring to Robert Flescher remembering something Sean Evans did 10 years ago.

Robert,

I think this was something that was in the past and should be left there. That was a long time ago and nobody cares. Everybody makes minor mistakes in their lives (and most make pretty major ones) and deserves to be able to live it down - otherwise I'm sure there are people in your life who could "remember" every little embarrassing or wrong thing YOU ever did and bring it up over and over. This certainly isn't in the league of some major crime or anything so why bring it up?