I don't get it...

[kranium]

yep, that's close to what I said, you can't force anyone to test something (or not to test something) - and I believe if Norman relaxes and keep on with good manners his creations will be once tested as well.

Greets, Thomas

I'm considering sending chocolates for Xmas...

[kranium]

But testers get to choose what they test. Maybe they don't have a good reason for the choice, but it is still their choice. And if you don't like what is being tested, anyone with spare CPU cycles can run their own tests.

--Jon

yeah, good point, i forgot...
they're under no obligation to be unbiased and fair, and they have no responsibility to the public.
they can simply abuse their power...and dictate from their position of influence which engines are acceptable and which are not.

if they believe what Vas says...or don't like the way you look tonight, your nationality, the color of you skin,
or something you posted, etc., etc.,

well...you can always kiss ass as last resort!

why?
because they're an exclusive membership only club...they're the CCC 'good old boys'!

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Norman,

if I continue the work with SWCR engines by yourself will be test next year too. Fire, IvanHoe and Cyclone are included in SWCR. Robbolito 0.09 is still running so far. At the moment I am working on my ToDo list. Need around 2 months.

Not sure with continue or not.
I got many mails with such wishes in the latest week.

Best
Frank

[kranium]

Hi Norman,

if I continue the work with SWCR engines by yourself will be test next year too. Fire, IvanHoe and Cyclone are included in SWCR. Robbolito 0.09 is still running so far. At the moment I am working on my ToDo list. Need around 2 months.

Not sure with continue or not.
I got many mails with such wishes in the latest week.

Best
Frank

Hi Frank-

I certainly hope you don't stop...the community needs less misguided and power corrupted testers,
and more objective people of principle, like yourself.

I appreciate your work immensely, especially your selfless, objective, and unprejudiced approach.

If i can help you in any way, don't hesitate to contact me...

Norm

PS-
I've recently finished Robbolito 0.09 SMP...am testing it now.

Have you considered 'live' games (maybe in match format)...?
it's rather easy to set up the broadcast.

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Norman,

thanks for your words.

Idea:
Fire, with all the nice UCI options, endgame bases support. What you included, all is fine.

Robbolito, easy smaller engine, without the most UCI options, without endgame bases support, with SMP support. Small code with many speed optimation. Try to give Robbolito more speculative tactic. Robbolito could be the little Fire, very spekulative as second actual engine. Only tactic parameter should be added as UCI feature.

An idea only.
So both engines will be very different in playing style.

Here the link for the round robin ...
1.480 games vs. 37 participants:
http://www.amateurschach.de/ftptrigger/ ... 9-x64.html

Best
Frank

[IWB]

Strelka is accepted as a valid engine and tested by the CCRL
[...]
Yet, Ippolit engines are discredited and banned...and Strelka lauded and accepted?

Agreed, this looks like double standards. The problem might be that you can't test everything, simply because of time troubles. To test the strongest available engine seams reasonable. Well, and some use the rule "only if there is a non anon behind the engine" - but then Fire is back in the game. So some might not test Fire because of your behaviour in the past which wasn't always acceptable. On the other hand you can't someone force to test something, just relax, sooner or later everything will be tested.

Basicaly you get a +1 for this from my side, I just want to explain my reasoning in more detail.

I test nearly every engine (with a reasonable release rate), I just do not publish:

1. Engines with an unknown author! I consider this unfair to the other authors.
2. As all Littos are very similar, I test only the best one (as long as 1. is given)

Thats it!

There are some more smaller limitaitons, for example, if you test the Robos (up to 0.9) you see that there is not much of a gain in playing strength. For the last 2 years all Hoes, Fires and Samoses are within a +/- 20 elo range in the IPON.
Agreed, there is an increase in functionalaty and stability, but nothing substiancial in playing strengh - except Houdini!
Talking about Norman, the Difference between Robo 0.9 and the latest fire in the IPON would be less than 20 Elo. I do not see any reasoning to publish that especially seeing his reputaion as a repeatedly cought cloner of free sources. If one day Fire would be THE number one Litto I might (not that I would like it) change my thinking because of some pragmatic reasons. For now I dont see that, especially because if all the Littos beeing very similar!

Regarding Strelka the thing is a bit different. I would test Strelka as it might be reasonabley different from the Littos (even if there seems to be some relationship, and it seems the eval is just multiplied by aprox. 3, which is fun to watch but completly preposterous) but it is simply too faulty right now to finish a full run (I started a test and played 39 game swith the latest 64bit compile and had 8 crashes - impossible to make an automated test with ponder on - if the errors are related to ponder!). Additionaly I could see just by watching the logs two UCI errors, it seems it is developed for the CB GUI again and not for UCI ...

One may like it or not but that is basicaly my reasoning for testing the doubtfull* engines.

Bye
Ingo

PS: And there is more 'doubtfull' in my list than just the Littos. I have some Fruit derivates in it as well, but if I remove every enigne where I have some doubt out of the top ten I would end with a top 6 if not a top 4 ... and that would be ridiculouse for a rating list!

[kranium]

Talking about Norman, the Difference between Robo 0.9 and the latest fire in the IPON would be less than 20 Elo. I do not see any reasoning to publish that especially seeing his reputaion as a repeatedly cought cloner of free sources.

you're a hypocrite...you have simply chosen to vilify and punish me.

you test Rybka don't you?
isn't Vas also a 'caught cloner of free sources', who made a career and many many thousands of dollars on the back of strong open sources...?
and you test Houdini as well?

your reasoning above appears to simply be a pathetic attempt to justify your own misguided biases, judgments, and misconceptions.

simply another pronouncement from the CCC 'Good Old Boys' corrupt moral majority.

[K I Hyams]

The establishment's golden-boy compiler (JA) is now collaborating with Jury on the compiles, apparently even adding 64-bit support

--------------
Yet, Ippolit engines are discredited and banned...and Strelka lauded and accepted?


The hypocrisy and arbitrary standards confound the imagination!
The situation is ludicrous...and the responsibility/failure lies with the entrenched CCC 'Good-old boys' establishment.

About 18 years ago, a footballer accused of match fixing was, for reasons that I will not go into here, found not guilty in a UK criminal court. However, his claim for legal expenses received no sympathy from the judge because, in the words of the judge, “your behaviour brought suspicion on yourself”. The behaviour of those responsible for publicising Ippolit brought suspicion upon the Ippolit team. The fact that their credibility was not helped by the unsubstantiated claims made by Rajlich made the wisdom of their behaviour even more questionable.

In a field in which facts are hard to verify, complete honesty is demanded and respected. Rajlich and Houdart are perceived as being dishonest by many people and the Ippolit authors by some people. Osipov’s description of Strelka 5 is perceived to be honest. Hence the difference in reactions.

If those responsible for Ippolit have done nothing wrong, then they will be treated with greater respect if they are honest and open with the community. You seem to have knowledge about what they did that is not available to the rest of us. If you have the means to communicate with them and want to set the record straight, you might consider getting their permission to answer relevant questions.

I was saddened to read that you still feel repercussions of your past behaviour. I think that you have atoned for your sins.

[IWB]

Read my complete statement again.

and: Yes yes, you are right, whatever. I know where it is coming from.

Bye
Ingo

[kranium]

Read my complete statement again.

and: Yes yes, you are right, whatever. I know where it is coming from.

Bye
Ingo

I'm right...?

I asked you questions:

you test Rybka don't you?
isn't Vas also a 'caught cloner of free sources', who made a career and many many thousands of dollars on the back of strong open sources...?
and you test Houdini as well?

no answers and just a dismissive 'whatever' reply?
Who are you judge me or anybody Ingo?