lkaufman wrote:We don't have much to go by, but probably Yonenaga still plays at around Shoreikai 3 Dan level, so these games indicate that the computer is stronger than that. I would not be surprised if they are already mid-pro level or stronger, so perhaps in FIDE chess terms 2650 or even higher. It partly depends on the time limit, the slower the game, the lower the rating for the computer against humans. Perhaps it could already defeat Habu or Watanabe in a match at 30 minutes per side, but would lose badly at the Meijin time limit of 9 hours per side.
I did not know that Shogi could go up to 9 hours per side, if you give 9 hours to GM Kramnik or Aronian it would be very hard for any current top programs to beat them in normal classical chess.
I am not sure that more time help humans in chess when we compare 9 hours per side with 2 hours per side even if we use some hardware that is slow enough that top humans are equal at 2 hours per side.
computers have a significant advantage at long time control and computers are never tired and have perfect memory when humans after a lot of calculation may forget their calculations(remember that making notes is not allowed in chess).
If your logic apply to chess, why it doesn't apply to Shogi when Larry Kaufman stated that at 9 hours per side the human have an advantage
lkaufman wrote:We don't have much to go by, but probably Yonenaga still plays at around Shoreikai 3 Dan level, so these games indicate that the computer is stronger than that. I would not be surprised if they are already mid-pro level or stronger, so perhaps in FIDE chess terms 2650 or even higher. It partly depends on the time limit, the slower the game, the lower the rating for the computer against humans. Perhaps it could already defeat Habu or Watanabe in a match at 30 minutes per side, but would lose badly at the Meijin time limit of 9 hours per side.
I did not know that Shogi could go up to 9 hours per side, if you give 9 hours to GM Kramnik or Aronian it would be very hard for any current top programs to beat them in normal classical chess.
I am not sure that more time help humans in chess when we compare 9 hours per side with 2 hours per side even if we use some hardware that is slow enough that top humans are equal at 2 hours per side.
computers have a significant advantage at long time control and computers are never tired and have perfect memory when humans after a lot of calculation may forget their calculations(remember that making notes is not allowed in chess).
If your logic apply to chess, why it doesn't apply to Shogi when Larry Kaufman stated that at 9 hours per side the human have an advantage
I should point out that the shogi title games with 9 hours per side are played over two days, with an adjournment, so fatigue is not as big an issue as you would otherwise imagine.
lkaufman wrote:We don't have much to go by, but probably Yonenaga still plays at around Shoreikai 3 Dan level, so these games indicate that the computer is stronger than that. I would not be surprised if they are already mid-pro level or stronger, so perhaps in FIDE chess terms 2650 or even higher. It partly depends on the time limit, the slower the game, the lower the rating for the computer against humans. Perhaps it could already defeat Habu or Watanabe in a match at 30 minutes per side, but would lose badly at the Meijin time limit of 9 hours per side.
I did not know that Shogi could go up to 9 hours per side, if you give 9 hours to GM Kramnik or Aronian it would be very hard for any current top programs to beat them in normal classical chess.
I am not sure that more time help humans in chess when we compare 9 hours per side with 2 hours per side even if we use some hardware that is slow enough that top humans are equal at 2 hours per side.
computers have a significant advantage at long time control and computers are never tired and have perfect memory when humans after a lot of calculation may forget their calculations(remember that making notes is not allowed in chess).
If your logic apply to chess, why it doesn't apply to Shogi when Larry Kaufman stated that at 9 hours per side the human have an advantage
I should point out that the shogi title games with 9 hours per side are played over two days, with an adjournment, so fatigue is not as big an issue as you would otherwise imagine.
What would you say if chess could also be played at 9 hours per side over two days, with adjournment versus the best chess engines what chance would you give to GM Kramnik or GM Aronian
PS: I still believe that the top 3 humans have the best chance against the 5 best engines by allowing time handicap, for instance the engine 15 seconds per move and the GM up to 5 minutes per move
lkaufman wrote:We don't have much to go by, but probably Yonenaga still plays at around Shoreikai 3 Dan level, so these games indicate that the computer is stronger than that. I would not be surprised if they are already mid-pro level or stronger, so perhaps in FIDE chess terms 2650 or even higher. It partly depends on the time limit, the slower the game, the lower the rating for the computer against humans. Perhaps it could already defeat Habu or Watanabe in a match at 30 minutes per side, but would lose badly at the Meijin time limit of 9 hours per side.
I did not know that Shogi could go up to 9 hours per side, if you give 9 hours to GM Kramnik or Aronian it would be very hard for any current top programs to beat them in normal classical chess.
I am not sure that more time help humans in chess when we compare 9 hours per side with 2 hours per side even if we use some hardware that is slow enough that top humans are equal at 2 hours per side.
computers have a significant advantage at long time control and computers are never tired and have perfect memory when humans after a lot of calculation may forget their calculations(remember that making notes is not allowed in chess).
If your logic apply to chess, why it doesn't apply to Shogi when Larry Kaufman stated that at 9 hours per side the human have an advantage
I should point out that the shogi title games with 9 hours per side are played over two days, with an adjournment, so fatigue is not as big an issue as you would otherwise imagine.
What would you say if chess could also be played at 9 hours per side over two days, with adjournment versus the best chess engines what chance would you give to GM Kramnik or GM Aronian
PS: I still believe that the top 3 humans have the best chance against the 5 best engines by allowing time handicap, for instance the engine 15 seconds per move and the GM up to 5 minutes per move
With equal time, even with 9 hours over two days the human stars would only get the occasional draw. But of course there exists some time handicap that would equalize the chances. The time handicap you suggest sounds reasonable, although of course it depends on how many cores the computer can use, whether or not "Ponder" is allowed (this tends to reduce time handicaps), and whether a special secret opening book is prepared for the event. There have been some time handicap matches between Rybka (and in one instance Zappa) and GMs, though none were current Elite level players. On the other hand, these were several years ago.
lkaufman wrote:We don't have much to go by, but probably Yonenaga still plays at around Shoreikai 3 Dan level, so these games indicate that the computer is stronger than that. I would not be surprised if they are already mid-pro level or stronger, so perhaps in FIDE chess terms 2650 or even higher. It partly depends on the time limit, the slower the game, the lower the rating for the computer against humans. Perhaps it could already defeat Habu or Watanabe in a match at 30 minutes per side, but would lose badly at the Meijin time limit of 9 hours per side.
I did not know that Shogi could go up to 9 hours per side, if you give 9 hours to GM Kramnik or Aronian it would be very hard for any current top programs to beat them in normal classical chess.
I am not sure that more time help humans in chess when we compare 9 hours per side with 2 hours per side even if we use some hardware that is slow enough that top humans are equal at 2 hours per side.
computers have a significant advantage at long time control and computers are never tired and have perfect memory when humans after a lot of calculation may forget their calculations(remember that making notes is not allowed in chess).
If your logic apply to chess, why it doesn't apply to Shogi when Larry Kaufman stated that at 9 hours per side the human have an advantage
I should point out that the shogi title games with 9 hours per side are played over two days, with an adjournment, so fatigue is not as big an issue as you would otherwise imagine.
What would you say if chess could also be played at 9 hours per side over two days, with adjournment versus the best chess engines what chance would you give to GM Kramnik or GM Aronian
PS: I still believe that the top 3 humans have the best chance against the 5 best engines by allowing time handicap, for instance the engine 15 seconds per move and the GM up to 5 minutes per move
With equal time, even with 9 hours over two days the human stars would only get the occasional draw. But of course there exists some time handicap that would equalize the chances. The time handicap you suggest sounds reasonable, although of course it depends on how many cores the computer can use, whether or not "Ponder" is allowed (this tends to reduce time handicaps), and whether a special secret opening book is prepared for the event. There have been some time handicap matches between Rybka (and in one instance Zappa) and GMs, though none were current Elite level players. On the other hand, these were several years ago.
Can you post at least of those games in which Rybka played handicapped versus non top GMs
Can you post at least of those games in which Rybka played handicapped versus non top GMs [/quote]
Some may still be available from the Rybka site, and all were published in the ICGA Journal over a year ago, but I don't have time to find them and transcribe them to electronic format. The majority of the Rybka games with GMs involved material handicaps, but eight games were normal ones with time handicaps plus White handicap and (for six of them) book restricted to three moves. There were also eight games with equal time but draw and White handicap, and two with just White handicap.
