I put a Rybka self-play randomizer match (search window 3cp) with the "pawn and move" handicap (f7 removed). I don't know if this was done before, maybe some Rybka Forum members would know.
[D]rnbqkbnr/ppppp1pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq[/D]
200 games at 1s/move
169:31
+145 =48 -7
Some ~300 computer Elo points handicap.
In 2008 Rybka played 8 games with this handicap against GM Roman Dzindzichashvili, and 2 games against GM Vadim Milov, performing at Elo 2550 FIDE level. This is AFAIK the last series of computer-GM games in stable conditions.
Now a bit of speculations: engines improved since 2008 by some ~150 Elo points, for a total difference of ~450 computer Elo points, meaning some ~350 human Elo points (could someone confirm that computer ratings are exaggerating the differences?). Therefore a recent top engine on a quad (and tournament TC) would be ~2550+350 ~ 2900 Elo points on FIDE ratings. Seems a bit low compared to Elo 3200 assumed by many for these engines.
Kai
Rybka odds matches and the strength of engines
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Re: Rybka odds matches and the strength of engines
This has been done before, (indeed on Rybka forum), and the results were not as extreme as what you report. In a far larger number of games the white advantage was ~72%, IIRC. This is in good agreement with what I found in self-play tests of Fairy-Max or Joker, and seemed almost completely independent on the level of play.
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Re: Rybka odds matches and the strength of engines
Ok, but seems to depend on the time control (more equal at longer TC, therefore depends on the level?). So, a 2900 Elo FIDE level seems plausible for present top engines on a quad? I am bit surprised (the commonly accepted level is >3000).hgm wrote:This has been done before, (indeed on Rybka forum), and the results were not as extreme as what you report. In a far larger number of games the white advantage was ~72%, IIRC. This is in good agreement with what I found in self-play tests of Fairy-Max or Joker, and seemed almost completely independent on the level of play.
Kai
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Re: Rybka odds matches and the strength of engines
I believe that the difference in playing strength against humans between having pawn advantage and not having pawn advantage is clearlyLaskos wrote:I put a Rybka self-play randomizer match (search window 3cp) with the "pawn and move" handicap (f7 removed). I don't know if this was done before, maybe some Rybka Forum members would know.
[D]rnbqkbnr/ppppp1pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq[/D]
200 games at 1s/move
169:31
+145 =48 -7
Some ~300 computer Elo points handicap.
In 2008 Rybka played 8 games with this handicap against GM Roman Dzindzichashvili, and 2 games against GM Vadim Milov, performing at Elo 2550 FIDE level. This is AFAIK the last series of computer-GM games in stable conditions.
Now a bit of speculations: engines improved since 2008 by some ~150 Elo points, for a total difference of ~450 computer Elo points, meaning some ~350 human Elo points (could someone confirm that computer ratings are exaggerating the differences?). Therefore a recent top engine on a quad (and tournament TC) would be ~2550+350 ~ 2900 Elo points on FIDE ratings. Seems a bit low compared to Elo 3200 assumed by many for these engines.
Kai
more than the difference in comp-comp games.
I also do not think that using self-play randomizer at 1 second per move is a good way to estimate elo computer difference.
self play randomizer at 1 second per move
means 2 things:
1)very fast time control that you do not use against humans
2)weaker playing strength relative to not using a randomizer.
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Re: Rybka odds matches and the strength of engines
Actually i tested Rybka without full pawn and its performance was approx.240 elo weaker than Rybka (default-with all peaces)Laskos wrote:Ok, but seems to depend on the time control (more equal at longer TC, therefore depends on the level?). So, a 2900 Elo FIDE level seems plausible for present top engines on a quad? I am bit surprised (the commonly accepted level is >3000).hgm wrote:This has been done before, (indeed on Rybka forum), and the results were not as extreme as what you report. In a far larger number of games the white advantage was ~72%, IIRC. This is in good agreement with what I found in self-play tests of Fairy-Max or Joker, and seemed almost completely independent on the level of play.
Kai
Rybka 4.1 WP x64 1c:
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/ratings/scct-auto232/
For more details about Human vs Engine Elo calculations:
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 1&start=20
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 4&start=50
Best,
Sedat
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Re: Rybka odds matches and the strength of engines
I don't know, are you sure?Uri Blass wrote:I believe that the difference in playing strength against humans between having pawn advantage and not having pawn advantage is clearlyLaskos wrote:I put a Rybka self-play randomizer match (search window 3cp) with the "pawn and move" handicap (f7 removed). I don't know if this was done before, maybe some Rybka Forum members would know.
[D]rnbqkbnr/ppppp1pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq[/D]
200 games at 1s/move
169:31
+145 =48 -7
Some ~300 computer Elo points handicap.
In 2008 Rybka played 8 games with this handicap against GM Roman Dzindzichashvili, and 2 games against GM Vadim Milov, performing at Elo 2550 FIDE level. This is AFAIK the last series of computer-GM games in stable conditions.
Now a bit of speculations: engines improved since 2008 by some ~150 Elo points, for a total difference of ~450 computer Elo points, meaning some ~350 human Elo points (could someone confirm that computer ratings are exaggerating the differences?). Therefore a recent top engine on a quad (and tournament TC) would be ~2550+350 ~ 2900 Elo points on FIDE ratings. Seems a bit low compared to Elo 3200 assumed by many for these engines.
Kai
more than the difference in comp-comp games.
Actually 1s/move is not so fast, the difference at slower TC would be even smaller (Sedat is showing 240 points instead of 300), and I am already wondering that the difference is not very large. The weakening at 3cp window is not that important (I guess).I also do not think that using self-play randomizer at 1 second per move is a good way to estimate elo computer difference.
self play randomizer at 1 second per move
means 2 things:
1)very fast time control that you do not use against humans
2)weaker playing strength relative to not using a randomizer.
Kai
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- Full name: Kai Laskos
Re: Rybka odds matches and the strength of engines
Is this the same (f7) "move and pawn" handicap? Thanks for the links, I was not trying to define generally the human rating with respect to computers, but it occurred to me that an obscure to me rated 2500+ something GM actually drew an 8-game match against Rybka 3 on a quad (IIRC) at pawn odds, and a stronger GM beat Rybka. Also, I am trying to imagine what taking back N times odds could mean.Sedat Canbaz wrote:Actually i tested Rybka without full pawn and its performance was approx.240 elo weaker than Rybka (default-with all peaces)Laskos wrote:Ok, but seems to depend on the time control (more equal at longer TC, therefore depends on the level?). So, a 2900 Elo FIDE level seems plausible for present top engines on a quad? I am bit surprised (the commonly accepted level is >3000).hgm wrote:This has been done before, (indeed on Rybka forum), and the results were not as extreme as what you report. In a far larger number of games the white advantage was ~72%, IIRC. This is in good agreement with what I found in self-play tests of Fairy-Max or Joker, and seemed almost completely independent on the level of play.
Kai
Rybka 4.1 WP x64 1c:
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/ratings/scct-auto232/
For more details about Human vs Engine Elo calculations:
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 1&start=20
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 4&start=50
Best,
Sedat
Kai
Last edited by Laskos on Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rybka odds matches and the strength of engines
Dear Kai,Laskos wrote:Is this the same (f7) "move and pawn" handicap?Sedat Canbaz wrote:Actually i tested Rybka without full pawn and its performance was approx.240 elo weaker than Rybka (default-with all peaces)Laskos wrote:Ok, but seems to depend on the time control (more equal at longer TC, therefore depends on the level?). So, a 2900 Elo FIDE level seems plausible for present top engines on a quad? I am bit surprised (the commonly accepted level is >3000).hgm wrote:This has been done before, (indeed on Rybka forum), and the results were not as extreme as what you report. In a far larger number of games the white advantage was ~72%, IIRC. This is in good agreement with what I found in self-play tests of Fairy-Max or Joker, and seemed almost completely independent on the level of play.
Kai
Rybka 4.1 WP x64 1c:
http://www.sedatcanbaz.com/chess/ratings/scct-auto232/
For more details about Human vs Engine Elo calculations:
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 1&start=20
http://www.talkchess.com/forum/viewtopi ... 4&start=50
Best,
Sedat
Kai
Rybka 4.1 x64 1c is played at handicap-without full pawn (e2 and e7),for more details:
http://rybkaforum.net/cgi-bin/rybkaforu ... 3;hl=sedat
Best,
Sedat
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Re: Rybka odds matches and the strength of engines
I suspect that it is not the same f7 pawn.Laskos wrote:I don't know, are you sure?Uri Blass wrote:I believe that the difference in playing strength against humans between having pawn advantage and not having pawn advantage is clearlyLaskos wrote:I put a Rybka self-play randomizer match (search window 3cp) with the "pawn and move" handicap (f7 removed). I don't know if this was done before, maybe some Rybka Forum members would know.
[D]rnbqkbnr/ppppp1pp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq[/D]
200 games at 1s/move
169:31
+145 =48 -7
Some ~300 computer Elo points handicap.
In 2008 Rybka played 8 games with this handicap against GM Roman Dzindzichashvili, and 2 games against GM Vadim Milov, performing at Elo 2550 FIDE level. This is AFAIK the last series of computer-GM games in stable conditions.
Now a bit of speculations: engines improved since 2008 by some ~150 Elo points, for a total difference of ~450 computer Elo points, meaning some ~350 human Elo points (could someone confirm that computer ratings are exaggerating the differences?). Therefore a recent top engine on a quad (and tournament TC) would be ~2550+350 ~ 2900 Elo points on FIDE ratings. Seems a bit low compared to Elo 3200 assumed by many for these engines.
Kai
more than the difference in comp-comp games.
Actually 1s/move is not so fast, the difference at slower TC would be even smaller (Sedat is showing 240 points instead of 300), and I am already wondering that the difference is not very large. The weakening at 3cp window is not that important (I guess).I also do not think that using self-play randomizer at 1 second per move is a good way to estimate elo computer difference.
self play randomizer at 1 second per move
means 2 things:
1)very fast time control that you do not use against humans
2)weaker playing strength relative to not using a randomizer.
Kai
It does not make sense to have a smaller difference at slower time control unless the position is a draw so slower time control helps the weaker side to find the right moves to draw.
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- Full name: Kai Laskos
Re: Rybka odds matches and the strength of engines
I actually put on faster controls than 1s/move to see what happens, and the difference was larger. At Rybka depth 5 (very fast games), 3cp window randomizer, I waited for some 40 games to have a single draw, I was thinking that I messed up something (still a possibility).Uri Blass wrote:
I suspect that it is not the same f7 pawn.
It does not make sense to have a smaller difference at slower time control unless the position is a draw so slower time control helps the weaker side to find the right moves to draw.
Kai