What's Vasik Rajlich doing today?

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Rebel
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Re: What's Vasik Rajlich doing today?

Post by Rebel »

Frank Quisinsky wrote:Hi Ed,

OK,

To discuss with you about programming made no sense for yourself / myself. Here I have on a good day 800 Elo only. Often I am thinking I should hold my mouth from things I don't have enough knwoledge! I hope Lucas will not give a comment to it. He is very hard is such things :-)

In German:
Wenn Du keine Ahnung hast einfach mal Fresse halten.
Very good ... for me too!

Misunderstanding your message to Magic Bitboards. Double missunderstanding. Fabian explain me so many things for a while by mail (today in the evening I will read all this again). I am sure, that I had the explanaition by Fabian wrong in my brain. Programming isn't my topic. Sorry for it and my mistake to the topic "Bitboards".

---
All okay.

Your other question in a separate post.
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Rebel
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Re: What's Vasik Rajlich doing today?

Post by Rebel »

Frank Quisinsky wrote: If Rybka 1 have nothing to do with Fruit Vas had six years time to clear the situation.
Okay, this is going to be controversial, can be fun anyway, so let's have it :wink:

The right to silence is a fundamental right in court not to incriminate one self, or more subtle in his case not to talk (and explain) about his secrets that put him on top for quite some time. Silence doesn't mean (a sign of) guilt. In the end code decides if he is guilty or not.

Although I never met Vas in person due to my email contacts and his general behaviour in public I learned a bit about how he looks at things and he is not an every day person. Statements like: when I began with chess programming in 2003 I already knew I would go commercial I would dominate the rating lists. Think about that for a moment.

Take for instance the Sven-Vas correspondence about the origin of Ippolit, Sven asking specific questions that would proof Vas' claim Ippolit being Rybka in disguise. You see the same pattern as with the RF case, he doesn't answer Sven and remains vague and in the end you know nothing more than before. This while it was in his own interest to clear the case.

So what goes on in the mind of the person Vasik Raijlich?

Here are some options:

1. From a commercial perspective he doesn't want to give anyone information, not the tiniest bit;

2. He is arrogant, if he states Ippolit=Rybka you just have to believe him, period, likewise in the R/F case;

3. In the end the programmers figured it out themselves, that Ippolit is a Rybka clone and maybe he relied on that in the R/F case;

4. He doesn't trust anyone. Not even me, the latter I know for sure.

So place your bets :lol:

Would not be my choice, I would defend myself to death to such slander.
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Rebel
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Re: What's Vasik Rajlich doing today?

Post by Rebel »

hgm wrote:Well, so you still don't understand what 'substantial similarity' means?
I do. It means for instance that if you multiply all the PST's cells by 2 it's still a substantial similarity case and you are guilty of copyright infringement on the intellectual property of Fabien.
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Rebel
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Re: What's Vasik Rajlich doing today?

Post by Rebel »

BTW HGM, you might want to consult Bob on this issue.

About PST's -

Bob - No, there was no code copying. however, there was "Data Copying" which is exactly the same thing in the given context. Not allowable.
Sedat Canbaz
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Re: What's Vasik Rajlich doing today?

Post by Sedat Canbaz »

Rebel wrote:
So what goes on in the mind of the person Vasik Raijlich?

2. He is arrogant, if he states Ippolit=Rybka you just have to believe him, period, likewise in the R/F case;

3. In the end the programmers figured it out themselves, that Ippolit is a Rybka clone and maybe he relied on that in the R/F case;
Yes...after reading your interesting comments, one story came on my mind and decided to share with you)

I think it was around 2010, when Houdini is appeared on scene...
And on these days, I was wondering what will be Vas's reaction in case of if I will test Houdini...

And during our private mails,
I informed Vas that I am planning to test Houdini and his replay was:
- Sedat no problem, you can test any engine as you wish...

That shows how much Vas has a BIG heart....!!

Yes...we need more programmers as Vasik Rajlich !


Best,
Sedat
bob
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Re: What's Vasik Rajlich doing today?

Post by bob »

Rebel wrote:
bob wrote:
Rebel wrote:Fern, what I learned from the whole event, thus in retrospect, is that the main mistake was made right from the beginning, good and experienced programmers thinking they also were experts in the field of clone detection. Neither of us were, myself included. Then a guy like Andrew Dalke (a real expert) comes along and tears the whole case into pieces.

Not a popular statement, I am sure.
Nor a factual statement either. He did not "tear the whole case into pieces". But you do have to read what he wrote carefully to get his meaning. Which is significantly different than what you are implying here...
Then let's see what he said keeping in mind on the one thing we agree on that ICGA rule #2 (since day one) is about copyright infringement and not about using ideas.
  • 1. Functional similarity by itself does not show copyright infringement.

    2. Rybka was not developed as a clean-room reimplementation of Fruit, and the author has long acknowledged an intensive review of the Fruit source. The point here is only to show that functional similarity is not a clear indicator of copyright infringement.

    3. Some may believe that reviewing the source code to Fruit means that Rybka is necessarily a derivative work. This is incorrect. A clean-room reimplementation makes it abundantly clear that there is no copyright infringement, but the lack of a clean-room style does not mean there is infringement.

    4. Therefore, intensive review and study of the Fruit does not mean that Rybka infringes on the Fruit copyright just like an intensive review and study of MINIX does not mean that Linux infringes on the MINIX (or Unix) copyrights.

    5. The Rybka investigators acknowledge that no individual piece of evidence is the proverbial smoking gun.

    6. It may very well be that Rybka contains copyright infringing code. It's possible, after all, that 27 lines out of 525,000 are enough to make a substantial copyright infringement claim. The problem is that the methodology of the Rybka investigators is not strong enough to be convincing.

    7. They claim to use the abstraction-filtration-comparison test to determine substantial similarity, but without the appropriate filtration. At each of the structural levels they fail to show that the discovery methods are not producing false positives, and they fail to demonstrate that the similarity level is greater than would be expected from a non-infringing chess program implementing the idea at the same structural level.

    8. The document of Rybka investigator Zach Wegner is highly misleading. Without a mapping from the C structures based to disassembled code, it's impossible to judge the correctness of what the author writes. With a translation directly into idiomatic Fruit code, the visual similarities are overly distracting from the actual comparison, which is on a level that isn't show.

    9. Copyright law already acknowledges that at higher levels there's no copyright infringement because it's different expressions of a common idea. Hence the statement "high-level functionality is always equivalent in these cases" is meaningless unless it's established that this level is not high enough.
It's not much different what Fabien himself said how he created Fruit from known knowledge 8 months before Rybka 1.0 was released.

http://www.top-5000.nl/Zach/rybka.htm#fabien

-------

Furthermore Bob you seem to be okay that we were all laymam in the field of clone detection. Surely we could detect obvious clones (Bionic | Gunda | Houdini) in a couple of hours ending quickly in a general consensus among the programmers. The RF case is a different animal, no copyright infringement. The evidence for that is at minimum.

One can argue if Vas took too many ideas from Fruit but then you first a) have to define "too many" and b) read first what Fabien wrote himself about using ideas and knowledge from others in the giving link above.
Again. Read what he WROTE. The ICGA did not claim "copyright infringement" whatsoever. We claimed he violated Rule 2. With some of the stuff that has been exposed, one could also make a viable case for copyright violation (the hashing was one of several bits of quite damning code that were produced by a 3rd party (Richard Vida)). All Dalke is doing above is talking about copyright infringement, which has nothing to do with the ICGA rule 2.

I've pointed this out several times in the past, yet it doesn't seem to sink in. We had neither the time nor the interest to go through every byte of Rybka to determine what was copied and what was not. Big effort. All we cared about was "Did Rybka meet the definition of ICGA rule 2 for originality or not?"
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Re: What's Vasik Rajlich doing today?

Post by bob »

hgm wrote:
Rebel wrote:You are making my day, you should consult Zach Wegner and Mark Watkins. The PST's are a sphere point in both their documents Vas copied Fruit. And you are saying it's all okay???? What you describe is EXACTLY what Wegner and Watkins accuse Vasik of.

Enough.
You really don't get it, do you?

I am saying it is not a copyright infringement.
Of course it is an ICGA rule #2 violation.

These are not the same, and the fact that you maintain they are, makes any opinion you have on this entire matter only suitable for the dustbin.
Again you wildly stretch things. I do not believe that copying one specific PST table would cause a rule-2 violation. And we did not claim that it did. We claim that what we found showed that Rybka WAS directly derived from Fruit (vis a vis the PST data) and stated that was just one (insufficient) example of something that was copied. Our case was made on the totality of the evidence that showed that MANY things had been copied. Each one, by itself, not particularly alarming, but taken as a whole, it went far beyond "too much".
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Re: What's Vasik Rajlich doing today?

Post by hgm »

Perhaps you can also comment on my hypothetical example, aimed at illustrating the difference between copyright infringement and ICGA rule#2 violations. Because Ed still thinks these are exactly the same, and actually did explicitly mention you as someone that would agree with that.

Note that the example does not handle about using just a single PST, but all of them. (I took PST for this 'thought experiment' because they are the biggest tables used in Fruit, apart from the Zobrist keys, which are probably not protected by copyright in the first place.)
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Re: What's Vasik Rajlich doing today?

Post by Frank Quisinsky »

I will answer later in the day of your message!
But this one explain my opinion:

Here my view. I have the same as a friendly judge from me. I told him the situation for a while and he have no interest to discuss with me, because after a minute only the situation is more as clear for him. At first, most important are one question only.

Picture for an example:

1. Person A draw a picture

2. Person B have stolen the picture and changed a lot. For looking the picuture all is more nicely. Not important what he do ... selling or not.

3. Not know people "C" have stolen the picuture from person B. Not important free, selling or whatever.

4. Person D repair the mistakes the "unkown group "C" made. Not important what he do, selling, free or whatever.

5. Person E see that and works with the repaired code from Person "D".

6. Others are thinking great ... we can do the same and have stolen the work Person E made or used the work Person D made or used the work the "Unknown Group of Person "C" made.

The Judge answered directly very simple!
For me important is only one question at first. Was the picuture stolen from Person B or not. All others things arn't important at first, because if so ... all others have give his pictures to person A back. Simply, the picture of person A was Copyright. An other question is how big is damage for person A. After this different other things could be interesting.

If the Picture are changed is this much more interesting for him. Not important for him is the picture better or not better. No other person have to changed a Copyright work. I told him, that with changes the Picture is clearly better as before. The judge told me, that isn't important ... the originality was changed and this isn't right.

If such a case goes to a judge ... a big chaos for computer chess. Causal chain running a long time.

My opinion to open sources in chess programming aren't really good. The best way to solved such a problem isn't a judge, the important persons ... Person A and Person B should find a solution. That is most important I think.

I will not have the work from Person C or D or E or F in my list of engines for a _Continuous_ Tourney ... the complete work I do here, my complicated _continuous_ tourney is for the trash can. Much more interesting as to used such programs (at the Minimum we can say ... Status unclear) are to use the other available engines. And in my opinion the other available engines are much more interesting.

Furthermore:
For me most important are my stats to playing styles. I am not a programmer and originality I can checked with my method only in looking stats and comparing analyzes. If I can build the opinion that a program have today nothing to do with all this, I added the engine. Maybe I am wrong with different engines I added, but I am not a god. All other users are not a god and can build an own opinion, Sedat do, CEGT do, CCRL, Graham do, Ingo do with here IPON. It's complicated in my view. I wish me that the situation will be solved in the future. Thats is better for Computer chess as the situation we have. Because each time ... also in ten years it will be a main topic. It's a bad black hole in Computer chess and the most important persons here should try to clean it.

Best
Frank
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Re: What's Vasik Rajlich doing today?

Post by Sedat Canbaz »

Just my 2 cents more over this issue,
1) This thread is gone into different direction
*A note: The main thread question is not: Rybka is original or not...
*Simply the main thread question is: What's Vasik Rajlich doing today?
2)I noticed: How many people are against Vas or dislike his engine
3)I noticed: How many people respect Vas and love his engine
4)Some people (including me) are to busy with this thread

And I kindly suggest,
We should concentrate to others things...to our work...it's enough...
If you like a such topics...it's time to look in the other engine origins
I don't believe that only Rybka is studied from Fruit...
A little suggestion: please check those engines which are released after May 2009

And without to not mention this I can't,
Take a pencil and write in paper:
Rybka is 'too much' stronger than Fruit, just 500 Elo
If Rybka with 48% similarity and +500 Elo over Fruit is considering as clone
Then as a tester, I am wondering a lot,
Please inform me which are those 100% original engines, which we need to test ??

BTW,
Last night, I saw Vas in my dream
(I swear for the first time happens to see a programmer in my dreams)
And here is my dream:
- I am visiting Vas (at his home) and during our conversations...
Suddenly something like a 'devil' or 'ghost' appeared in front of us
Exactly at that moment I waked up...and now I am wondering what does my dream mean ...?!

Greetings,
Sedat