Gligoric-Smyslov, 1959

[zullil]

R1b2

[d]8/1rb2k2/4q1p1/p1BbPpPp/B1pP1P2/2P3K1/1r1R4/3RQ3 w - - 0 12

SF plays Ba3 with evaluation 0
[d]8/1rb2k2/4q1p1/p2bPpPp/B1pP1P2/B1P3K1/1r1R4/3RQ3 b - - 23 16

Is there a plan here for Black? I promise not to tell SF.

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

R1b2

[d]8/1rb2k2/4q1p1/p1BbPpPp/B1pP1P2/2P3K1/1r1R4/3RQ3 w - - 0 12

SF plays Ba3 with evaluation 0
[d]8/1rb2k2/4q1p1/p2bPpPp/B1pP1P2/B1P3K1/1r1R4/3RQ3 b - - 23 16

Is there a plan here for Black? I promise not to tell SF.

R2b6

[d]8/1rb2k2/1r2q1p1/p2bPpPp/B1pP1P2/B1P3K1/3R4/3RQ3 w - - 0 13

Why are you talking to me during a game?

Not, seriously, I would prefer not to talk about plans right now, as, as soon as I say something, or claim something, someone expressly appears to tell me how stupid I am, so I would prefer not to talk about plans right now.

However, if you want a clue, this is just to you, if black manages to exchange all pieces, black is winning the pawn endgame, with a and h passers beating white central passers.

But Louis, do not think I am so naive, I observe you are a great fighter, and very clever at the same time. You use all the info I disclose to accomodate the length of SF search, etc., so SF chances greatly improve in that way.

Another good reason behind black moves is shuffle SF to death.

[zullil]

R2b6

[d]8/1rb2k2/1r2q1p1/p2bPpPp/B1pP1P2/B1P3K1/3R4/3RQ3 w - - 0 13

Why are you talking to me during a game?

SF plays Ra1 with evaluation 9cp for White.
[d]8/1rb2k2/1r2q1p1/p2bPpPp/B1pP1P2/B1P3K1/3R4/R3Q3 b - - 25 17

Was asking about a plan because I will need my computer for other purposes, but can delay a bit if there is a prospect that Black might be winning here. To me, there is only a draw, as there seems to have been all along.

[peter]

Not, seriously, I would prefer not to talk about plans right now, as, as soon as I say something, or claim something, someone expressly appears to tell me how stupid I am, so I would prefer not to talk about plans right now.

That I can understand quite well.

However, if you want a clue, this is just to you, if black manages to exchange all pieces, black is winning the pawn endgame, with a and h passers beating white central passers.

...

Another good reason behind black moves is shuffle SF to death.

I know you don't really mean that all quite seiously but if you did, wouldn't there be a little interdictio in se between these two plans?
I mean black won't manage to exchange all pieces by shuffling, will he?

And then I can understand quite well too, that you don't want to talk about plans at that point, cause to whom would you try to make plausible that your plan after your "winner" 31...Ra6 was more than 30 moves long just to reach the position you have now?

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

R2b6

[d]8/1rb2k2/1r2q1p1/p2bPpPp/B1pP1P2/B1P3K1/3R4/3RQ3 w - - 0 13

Why are you talking to me during a game?

SF plays Ra1 with evaluation 9cp for White.
[d]8/1rb2k2/1r2q1p1/p2bPpPp/B1pP1P2/B1P3K1/3R4/R3Q3 b - - 25 17

Was asking about a plan because I will need my computer for other purposes, but can delay a bit if there is a prospect that Black might be winning here. To me, there is only a draw, as there seems to have been all along.

Bd8

[d]3b4/1r3k2/1r2q1p1/p2bPpPp/B1pP1P2/B1P3K1/3R4/R3Q3 w - - 0 14

Plan is clear.
For example, I am now threatening Bg5, with mate to follow.

No need to rush at all.
I will be happy, if you reply in 2 or 3 days, when you are done with your more urgent tasks.

If you are just bored to death with the game, please feel at your ease to just abandon it.

The main point was that we are just checking if black should win the initial position or not.
If we do not come up with a conclusion now, we will still have to wait couple of years more, or maybe a decade, before, when I repost the same position again, asking Is this a draw or a win, Kim will severely reprimand me: What do you mean win or draw, SF says 4 pawns black advantage!

So that, I am not that interested to play that game, I know black is winning this, and I know I am playing very weak now, missing a lot of opportunities, but the point is that, people will remain for a very long time with the wrong opinion on the above position...

Anyway, break it or not, nothing good will come out of it, I am sure you know it.

[zullil]

Bd8

[d]3b4/1r3k2/1r2q1p1/p2bPpPp/B1pP1P2/B1P3K1/3R4/R3Q3 w - - 0 14

Plan is clear.
For example, I am now threatening Bg5, with mate to follow.

SF says Bc5 with eval 21cp for White:
[d]3b4/1r3k2/1r2q1p1/p1BbPpPp/B1pP1P2/2P3K1/3R4/R3Q3 b - - 27 18

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Bd8

[d]3b4/1r3k2/1r2q1p1/p2bPpPp/B1pP1P2/B1P3K1/3R4/R3Q3 w - - 0 14

Plan is clear.
For example, I am now threatening Bg5, with mate to follow.

SF says Bc5 with eval 21cp for White:
[d]3b4/1r3k2/1r2q1p1/p1BbPpPp/B1pP1P2/2P3K1/3R4/R3Q3 b - - 27 18

Rb2

[d]3b4/1r3k2/4q1p1/p1BbPpPp/B1pP1P2/2P3K1/1r1R4/R3Q3 w - - 0 15

[beram]

Yeah, I checked the position more thoroughly.

Rb3 does not win, but Ra6 does.

It seems I am a better player than Smyslov.

Black is much better on the main diagram for the simple reason that the 2 white central passers on d4 and e5 go nowhere, as the squares in front of them are firmly controlled by black pieces, while the a4 black passer can quickly advance.
But as engines do not consider square control...

Secondly, of course, the white king is too exposed, and that, coupled with the above, ensures black big advantage.

White has some good chain pawns, but that is a secondary factor in the position.

SF is a very weak positional player.
It slaughters me tactically, but hardly ever makes a single good positional move.

Anyone seeing how white can avoid defeat after Ra6?

Dear Lyudmill,

After two weeks of spending(or wasting) your time on this position (your post was from Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:19 pm ) you have prooven yourself to be wrong all the way, as we allready expected and knew earlier on

I have red marked four wrong assumptions in your original post
It would be nice if you could at least admit that you where too optimistic
But I pretty much doubt you will agree on that

[zullil]

Rb2

[d]3b4/1r3k2/4q1p1/p1BbPpPp/B1pP1P2/2P3K1/1r1R4/R3Q3 w - - 0 15

Bc2 with eval 15cp for White:
[d]3b4/1r3k2/4q1p1/p1BbPpPp/2pP1P2/2P3K1/1rBR4/R3Q3 b - - 29 19

[Lyudmil Tsvetkov]

Yeah, I checked the position more thoroughly.

Rb3 does not win, but Ra6 does.

It seems I am a better player than Smyslov.

Black is much better on the main diagram for the simple reason that the 2 white central passers on d4 and e5 go nowhere, as the squares in front of them are firmly controlled by black pieces, while the a4 black passer can quickly advance.
But as engines do not consider square control...

Secondly, of course, the white king is too exposed, and that, coupled with the above, ensures black big advantage.

White has some good chain pawns, but that is a secondary factor in the position.

SF is a very weak positional player.
It slaughters me tactically, but hardly ever makes a single good positional move.

Anyone seeing how white can avoid defeat after Ra6?

Dear Lyudmill,

After two weeks of spending(or wasting) your time on this position (your post was from Sat Feb 28, 2015 5:19 pm ) you have prooven yourself to be wrong all the way, as we allready expected and knew earlier on

I have red marked four wrong assumptions in your original post
It would be nice if you could at least admit that you where too optimistic
But I pretty much doubt you will agree on that

Same message to you: in 4 years you will claim yourself that the position is won for black, as latest SF development shows 5 full pawns black edge.

No problem at all to stop this thread, BUT, please note well, because you might not be that far-seeing: when I stop this thread, it will be all along Clone threads, today, yesterday and tomorrow.

You can not always prove everything.

It is real pity even very educated people can not appreciate the service Louis has been doing for this community, with his restless SF feedback.