Who else?

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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AdminX
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Who else?

Post by AdminX »

[d]2r3k1/1b6/1q1p2B1/1r1Pp3/1Q3n2/4RN1P/5PP1/4R1K1 w - - 0 38
Position from Carlsen - Giri (3rd Norway Chess 2015)
Alejandro Ramirez wrote: "This idea did not occur to any of us in the analysis room. Talking later to Kasparov about it, before he knew the answer to the "puzzle", he only knew that Qe4 was incorrect as Carlsen played it. Instantly he thought of 38.Bh7+, but that move fails to the surprising 38...Kh8! And instantly he smiled, thought for a second, and said. "Of course, 38.Bf7+!"""
Most engines spot this quickly, However in Carlsen's defence I can only think two other humans that would spot this besides Garry Kasparov. They are Mikhail Tal (deceased), and Maxime Vachier-Lagrave. I am on the fence as to if Bobby Fischer (Also deceased) would spot this even.

As for engines, I think the question would be which engines don't spot Bf7+?


Analysis by DelfiT 5.4:

38.Bf7+ Kxf7 39.Qe4 Rxd5 40.Qh7+ Ke8 41.Qh6 Nxh3+ 42.Qxh3 Kd8 43.Qe6 Qa6 44.Qf6+ Kc7 45.Rb1 Rc5 46.Qe7+ Kb8 47.Reb3
+/- (1.25) Depth: 14 00:00:28 119MN
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
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Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Who else?

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

AdminX wrote:[d]2r3k1/1b6/1q1p2B1/1r1Pp3/1Q3n2/4RN1P/5PP1/4R1K1 w - - 0 38
Position from Carlsen - Giri (3rd Norway Chess 2015)
Alejandro Ramirez wrote: "This idea did not occur to any of us in the analysis room. Talking later to Kasparov about it, before he knew the answer to the "puzzle", he only knew that Qe4 was incorrect as Carlsen played it. Instantly he thought of 38.Bh7+, but that move fails to the surprising 38...Kh8! And instantly he smiled, thought for a second, and said. "Of course, 38.Bf7+!"""
Most engines spot this quickly, However in Carlsen's defence I can only think two other humans that would spot this besides Garry Kasparov. They are Mikhail Tal (deceased), and Maxime Vachier-Lagrave. I am on the fence as to if Bobby Fischer (Also deceased) would spot this even.

As for engines, I think the question would be which engines don't spot Bf7+?


Analysis by DelfiT 5.4:

38.Bf7+ Kxf7 39.Qe4 Rxd5 40.Qh7+ Ke8 41.Qh6 Nxh3+ 42.Qxh3 Kd8 43.Qe6 Qa6 44.Qf6+ Kc7 45.Rb1 Rc5 46.Qe7+ Kb8 47.Reb3
+/- (1.25) Depth: 14 00:00:28 119MN
If checks are not available, Qe4 is the only move, evading the queen and defending the bishop.

In order to win, you need a move that defends the d5 pawn effectively, so that it can not be captured by the black bishop. Which one is that move, so that the white queen does not fall in the process? Again, a single choice - Bf7.

Following that logic, you consider a single move.

SF sees that instantly - +400cps in a second, +10 pawns in a very short while. Engines see everything that is shallow, and almost nothing that is deep. That is how engines are able to outperform humans: in 40 moves time, the human has made 10 good moves and the engine replied with 10 bad but not losing moves, costing each 10cps positional advantage, so at that point the human has 100cps advantage, maybe winning. Then, the human makes a single, but fatal big mistake, worth 3-4 full pawns in a shallow tactical line that the engine sees instantly, and wins the game.

The question is: who played better, the engine, who made 10 small inaccurate moves, or the human, who made a single bigger mistake, though losing?

Man, thanks for posting the game, but that is not a blunder at all in comparison to overstepping one's time... :shock:

That is how humans play: they make big mistakes, and they overstep their time, because they are humans and their minds are occupied by a lot of other things. Engines never lose on time, and they never make big shallow mistakes.

Carlsen is not in a good form right now, for some reason world champions are never in a good form immediately before a title defence match...
kinderchocolate
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Re: Who else?

Post by kinderchocolate »

Small correction, Carlsen has no title match this year. We don't even who's going to go through the candidate.
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Re: Who else?

Post by AdminX »

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: Man, thanks for posting the game, but that is not a blunder at all in comparison to overstepping one's time... :shock:
:lol: So True Lyudmil Tsvetkov, I find myself doing that allot lately. However I am over 50, rare when someone as young as Carlsen does. :wink:
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
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Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Who else?

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

AdminX wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: Man, thanks for posting the game, but that is not a blunder at all in comparison to overstepping one's time... :shock:
:lol: So True Lyudmil Tsvetkov, I find myself doing that allot lately. However I am over 50, rare when someone as young as Carlsen does. :wink:
Oh, I see, and you hung a picture of when you were at high school...:)
Lyudmil Tsvetkov
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Re: Who else?

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

kinderchocolate wrote:Small correction, Carlsen has no title match this year. We don't even who's going to go through the candidate.
Man, he started preparing much earlier this time :), even worse that he does not know whom to prepare for, so he must prepare for everyone. :)

(meaning, if he is able to overstep his time, why should not I be able to be wrong about a vital info, about which one simply has no right to be wrong?)

Nervous tension or too many undesired duties are able to spoil everyone's clearheadedness.
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AdminX
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Re: Who else?

Post by AdminX »

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
AdminX wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote: Man, thanks for posting the game, but that is not a blunder at all in comparison to overstepping one's time... :shock:
:lol: So True Lyudmil Tsvetkov, I find myself doing that allot lately. However I am over 50, rare when someone as young as Carlsen does. :wink:
Oh, I see, and you hung a picture of when you were at high school...:)
I wish, there was a reason I shaved my head and it was not because I was losing my hair. More so because I got tired of looking at all that grey. :lol:
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
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Ted Summers