Kasparov-Deep Thought 1997 (second game)

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Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: Kasparov-Deep Thought 1997 (second game)

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

Ignacio wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
Ignacio wrote:What about Kf7 (not Qxg4)after Qg4+?

Ignacio.
won in all lines.

Rc7 Qg4 hg4 Ke6 Rd7 Kd7 Kf1:

[d]8/3k2p1/3P1p1p/8/1Pp3P1/2P1p3/6P1/5K2 b - - 0 15

or, Rc7 dc7 f5 Qe2 Ke7 c8q Qc8 Qe3 Qe6 Qc5 Ke8 b5:

[d]4k3/6p1/4q2p/1PQ2p2/2p5/2P4P/6P1/6K1 b - - 0 18

and this queen ending is won too
The first position is easy draw
lines?

my SF shows +700cps.
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Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: Kasparov-Deep Thought 1997 (second game)

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

as said, Deep Blue and Kasparov played so weak, and the analysers analysed so bad, that, indeed, in the starting position everything wins.

for example, Ra2 instead of Ra6:

[d]1r6/5kp1/1qQb1p1p/1p1PpP2/1Pp1B3/2P4P/R5P1/5K2 b - - 0 1

this is easily won.

white changes queens on the very next move and goes on to win.

other rook moves win too.

Deep Blue played so weak, that on the main position it picked with Ra6 only the 4th or even 5th best move(after Qb6, Qd7, Ra2, etc.).

think that people thought of this match as an extraordinary event.
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Ignacio
Posts: 177
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:15 pm

Re: Kasparov-Deep Thought 1997 (second game)

Post by Ignacio »

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
Ignacio wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
Ignacio wrote:What about Kf7 (not Qxg4)after Qg4+?

Ignacio.
won in all lines.

Rc7 Qg4 hg4 Ke6 Rd7 Kd7 Kf1:

[d]8/3k2p1/3P1p1p/8/1Pp3P1/2P1p3/6P1/5K2 b - - 0 15

or, Rc7 dc7 f5 Qe2 Ke7 c8q Qc8 Qe3 Qe6 Qc5 Ke8 b5:

[d]4k3/6p1/4q2p/1PQ2p2/2p5/2P4P/6P1/6K1 b - - 0 18

and this queen ending is won too
The first position is easy draw
lines?

my SF shows +700cps.
My Komodo, Houdini and Stockfish say 0.00. You have a bad and wrong engine!.
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Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: Kasparov-Deep Thought 1997 (second game)

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

Ignacio wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
Ignacio wrote:
Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:
Ignacio wrote:What about Kf7 (not Qxg4)after Qg4+?

Ignacio.
won in all lines.

Rc7 Qg4 hg4 Ke6 Rd7 Kd7 Kf1:

[d]8/3k2p1/3P1p1p/8/1Pp3P1/2P1p3/6P1/5K2 b - - 0 15

or, Rc7 dc7 f5 Qe2 Ke7 c8q Qc8 Qe3 Qe6 Qc5 Ke8 b5:

[d]4k3/6p1/4q2p/1PQ2p2/2p5/2P4P/6P1/6K1 b - - 0 18

and this queen ending is won too
The first position is easy draw
lines?

my SF shows +700cps.
My Komodo, Houdini and Stockfish say 0.00. You have a bad and wrong engine!.

Code: Select all

Stockfish 8 64 POPCNT - o, Blitz 1m Microsoft
8/6p1/3k1p1p/8/1Pp3P1/2P1p3/6P1/5K2 w - - 0 1

Analysis by Stockfish 8 64 POPCNT:

17...Kc7 18.Kxe3 Kd7 19.Kd4 Kc7 20.Kxc4 
  +-  (9.57)   Depth: 6/6   00:00:00  0kN
17...Kc7 18.Kxe3 Kd7 19.Kd4 Kc7 20.Kxc4 Kb8 
  +-  (9.57)   Depth: 7/7   00:00:00  0kN
17...Kc7 18.Kxe3 Kd7 19.Kd4 Kc7 20.Kxc4 Kb8 21.g3 
  +-  (9.57)   Depth: 8/8   00:00:00  0kN
17...Kc7 18.Kxe3 Kb8 19.Ke4 Ka7 20.Kf5 h5 21.gxh5 Kb6 22.Kg6 
  +-  (9.57)   Depth: 9/10   00:00:00  0kN
17...Kc7 18.Kxe3 Kb8 19.Ke4 g6 20.Kd5 h5 21.gxh5 gxh5 22.g3 h4 23.gxh4 
  +-  (9.58)   Depth: 10/12   00:00:00  0kN
17...Kc7 18.Kxe3 Kd7 19.Kd4 Kc7 20.Kxc4 Kb8 21.g3 Ka7 22.Kd5 Kb7 23.c4 
  +-  (9.62)   Depth: 11/14   00:00:00  1kN
17...Kc7 18.Kxe3 Kd7 19.Kd4 Kc7 20.Kxc4 Kb8 21.g3 g5 22.b5 h5 23.gxh5 f5 24.h6 Kb7 
  +-  (9.59)   Depth: 12/15   00:00:00  1kN
17...Kc7 18.Kxe3 Kb8 19.Ke4 g6 20.g3 Ka7 21.Kd4 h5 22.gxh5 gxh5 23.Ke4 Ka6 24.Kf5 
  +-  (9.58)   Depth: 13/17   00:00:00  2kN
17...Kc7 18.Kxe3 Kb8 19.Ke4 g6 20.g3 Ka7 21.Kd4 h5 22.gxh5 gxh5 23.Ke4 Ka8 24.Kf5 h4 25.gxh4 Kb7 
  +-  (7.77)   Depth: 14/20   00:00:00  2kN
17...Kc7 18.Kxe3 Kd7 19.Kd4 Kc7 20.Kxc4 Kb8 21.g3 g6 22.Kd5 f5 23.gxf5 gxf5 24.Ke5 f4 25.Kxf4 
  +-  (9.71)   Depth: 15/21   00:00:00  4kN
17...Kc7 18.Kxe3 Kd7 19.Kd4 Kc7 20.Kxc4 Kb8 21.g3 g6 22.Kd5 f5 23.gxf5 gxf5 24.Ke5 f4 25.Kxf4 Kc7 
  +-  (9.71)   Depth: 16/21   00:00:00  6kN
17...Ke5 18.Kxe3 f5 19.gxf5 h5 20.b5 Kd5 21.Kf4 Kc5 22.Kg5 Kxb5 23.Kg6 Ka4 24.Kxg7 Kb3 25.f6 Kxc3 26.f7 Kb3 27.f8Q c3 28.Qf7+ Kb2 29.Qf6 Kb3 
  +-  (9.95)   Depth: 17/25   00:00:00  17kN
17...Ke5 18.Kxe3 f5 19.gxf5 h5 20.b5 Kd5 21.Kf4 Kc5 22.Kg5 Kxb5 23.Kg6 Ka4 24.Kxg7 Kb3 25.f6 Kxc3 26.f7 Kb3 27.f8Q c3 28.Qf7+ Kb2 29.Qf6 Kb3 30.Qb6+ Kc2 31.Qb4 Kd2 32.Qd4+ Kc2 
  +-  (9.97)   Depth: 18/31   00:00:00  24kN
17...Ke5 18.Kxe3 g6 19.Kf3 Kd5 20.Kf4 Kc6 21.Ke4 Kd7 22.Kd4 h5 23.gxh5 gxh5 24.Ke4 h4 25.Kf5 Kc6 26.Kxf6 Kb5 27.Kg5 Ka4 28.Kxh4 Kb3 29.b5 Kxc3 30.b6 Kb2 31.b7 c3 32.b8Q+ Ka2 
  +-  (9.71)   Depth: 19/37   00:00:00  101kN
17...Ke5 18.Kxe3 g6 19.Kf3 Kd5 20.Kf4 Kc6 21.Ke4 Kd7 22.Kd4 h5 23.gxh5 gxh5 24.Ke4 h4 25.Kf5 Kc6 26.Kxf6 Kb5 27.Kg5 Ka4 28.Kxh4 Kb3 29.b5 Kxc3 30.b6 Kd4 31.b7 Kd5 32.b8Q c3 33.Qb1 
  +-  (10.06)   Depth: 20/37   00:00:00  238kN
17...Ke5 18.Kxe3 g6 19.Kf3 Kd5 20.Kf4 Kc6 21.Ke4 Kd7 22.Kd4 h5 23.gxh5 gxh5 24.Ke4 h4 25.Kf5 Ke7 26.Kg4 Ke6 27.Kxh4 Ke5 28.Kh5 Ke4 29.b5 Kd3 30.b6 Kxc3 31.b7 Kc2 32.b8Q 
  +-  (10.06)   Depth: 21/37   00:00:00  317kN
17...Ke6 18.Kxe3 Ke5 19.g3 Kd5 20.Kf4 Ke6 21.Ke4 Ke7 22.Kd4 Kf7 23.Kxc4 Ke6 24.Kd4 f5 25.gxf5+ Kxf5 26.Kd5 Kf6 27.b5 Ke7 28.c4 h5 29.b6 Kd7 30.c5 g5 31.c6+ Kc8 32.Kd6 Kb8 33.c7+ Kb7 
  +-  (10.12)   Depth: 22/38   00:00:00  788kN
17...Ke5 18.Kxe3 Kd5 19.Kf4 Ke6 20.Ke4 Kf7 21.Kd5 Ke7 22.Kxc4 Kd6 23.g3 Ke6 24.Kd4 f5 25.gxf5+ Kxf5 26.Kd5 Kf6 27.b5 Ke7 28.b6 Kd7 29.c4 h5 30.c5 Kc8 31.Kc6 Kb8 32.Kd6 
  +-  (10.19)   Depth: 23/41   00:00:00  1813kN
17...Ke6 18.Kxe3 Ke5 19.g3 Kd5 20.Kf4 Ke6 21.Ke4 Ke7 22.Kd4 Kd7 23.Kd5 Kc8 24.Ke6 Kc7 25.Kf7 g5 26.Ke6 Kc6 27.Kxf6 Kd5 28.Kg7 Ke4 29.Kxh6 Kd3 30.b5 Kxc3 31.b6 Kd2 32.b7 c3 
  +-  (9.95)   Depth: 24/41   00:00:01  2223kN
17...Ke6 18.Kxe3 Ke5 19.g3 Kd5 20.Kf4 g6 21.Ke3 Kd6 22.Ke4 Kd7 23.Kd4 h5 24.gxh5 gxh5 25.Ke4 Kc6 26.Kf5 Kb5 27.Kxf6 Ka4 28.Kf5 Kb5 29.Kg5 Ka4 30.Kf6 h4 31.gxh4 Kb3 32.b5 Kxc3 33.b6 Kc2 
  +-  (10.20)   Depth: 25/45   00:00:01  2816kN

(, Microsoft 18.07.2017)
do you see the +1000cps score?

besides, you can check that very simple endgame yourself, before asking stupid questions.

in that way, you will at least learn something.

for an alternative to Rc7, Kf1 also easily wins:

[d]8/3r1kp1/2RPqp1p/8/1Pp3Q1/2P1p2P/6P1/5K2 b - - 0 13

as said, the white position is so good, that at least 90% of all lines are won for white, and white has a plethora of good moves.

authorities are created and debunked, that is the least of our concerns.
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Ignacio
Posts: 177
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:15 pm

Re: Kasparov-Deep Thought 1997 (second game)

Post by Ignacio »

Again, you have a wrong FEN.

[d]8/3k2p1/3P1p1p/8/1Pp3P1/2P1p3/6P1/5K2 b - - 0 15

FEN: 8/3k2p1/3P1p1p/8/1Pp3P1/2P1p3/6P1/5K2 b - - 0 15

Stockfish-8SE-x64-popcnt_tp:
1/1 00:02 215 107.500 +1,04 Rd7-c6
2/2 00:02 356 178.000 +1,10 Rd7-c6 b4-b5+ Rc6xd6
3/3 00:02 510 255.000 +1,10 Rd7-c6 b4-b5+ Rc6xd6
4/4 00:02 884 442.000 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-c6 Re2xe3
5/5 00:02 1.327 663.500 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-c6 Re2xe3 g7-g6
6/6 00:02 5.347 1.782.333 -0,04 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-c6 Re2-f3 Rc6-b5 Rf3xe3
7/7 00:02 6.026 2.008.666 -0,18 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 g7-g6 Re2xe3 Rd6-d5 Re3-f4 Rd5-c6
8/8 00:02 7.215 2.405.000 -0,16 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 g7-g6 Re2xe3 Rd6-d5 Re3-f3 Rd5-c6 Rf3-f4
9/12 00:02 17.272 3.454.400 -0,48 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 g7-g6 Re2xe3 Rd6-d5 Re3-f4 Rd5-c6 Rf4-e4 Rc6-b5 Re4-d4
10/12 00:02 34.011 5.668.500 -0,50 Rd7-c6 Rf1-e2 Rc6xd6 Re2xe3 Rd6-e5 Re3-e2 Re5-e4 Re2-f2 g7-g6 Rf2-e2 h6-h5 g4xh5
11/16 00:02 153.433 8.524.055 -0,52 g7-g5 Rf1-e2 Rd7xd6 Re2xe3 Rd6-e5 Re3-f3 Re5-d5 Rf3-e2 Rd5-e4 Re2-f2 Re4-e5 Rf2-e3 Re5-d5 Re3-d2
12/18 00:02 159.328 8.851.555 -0,52 g7-g5 Rf1-e2 Rd7xd6 Re2xe3 Rd6-e5 Re3-f3 Re5-d5 Rf3-e2 Rd5-e4 Re2-f2 Re4-e5 Rf2-e3 Re5-d5 Re3-f3 Rd5-e5 Rf3-f2 Re5-e4 Rf2-e2
13/21 00:02 166.521 8.764.263 -0,52 g7-g5 Rf1-e2 Rd7xd6 Re2xe3 Rd6-e5 Re3-f3 Re5-d5 Rf3-e2 Rd5-e4 Re2-f2 Re4-e5 Rf2-e3 Re5-d5 Re3-d2 Rd5-e4 Rd2-e2
14/21 00:02 191.622 9.124.857 -0,31 g7-g5 Rf1-e2 Rd7xd6 Re2xe3 Rd6-e5 Re3-e2 Re5-e4 Re2-f2 Re4-e5 Rf2-e3 Re5-d5 Re3-f3 Rd5-e5 Rf3-f2 Re5-d6 Rf2-e2 Rd6-e5 Re2-f3 Re5-d5 g2-g3
15/21 00:02 207.857 9.448.045 -0,33 g7-g5 Rf1-e2 Rd7xd6 Re2xe3 Rd6-e5 Re3-e2 Re5-e4 Re2-f2 Re4-e5 Rf2-e3 Re5-d5 Re3-f3 Rd5-e5 Rf3-f2 Re5-d6 Rf2-e2 Rd6-e5 Re2-f3 Re5-d5
16/23 00:02 619.326 9.989.129 -0,31 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-d5 Re2xe3 Rd5-e5 g2-g3 Re5-d5 Re3-f4 g7-g6 Rf4-f3 g6-g5 Rf3-f2 Rd5-e4 Rf2-e2 Re4-d5 Re2-f3 Rd5-e5 Rf3-e3 Re5-d5 Re3-e2 Rd5-c6 Re2-f2 Rc6-d5
17/24 00:02 920.046 10.337.595 -0,14 Rd7-c6 Rf1-e2 Rc6xd6 Re2xe3 Rd6-e5 Re3-f3 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rf3-g3 Rf5-e4 Rg3-g4 g7-g6 Rg4-h4 Re4-f4 Rh4-h3 Rf4-e4
18/25 00:02 1.287.198 10.908.457 -0,11 Rd7-c6 Rf1-e2 Rc6xd6 Re2xe3 Rd6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c1 Rf5-e5 Rc1-b2 Re5-d5 Rb2-a3 Rd5-c6 Ra3-a4 g7-g5 b4-b5+ Rc6-c5 Ra4-a5 h6-h5
19/31 00:02 1.641.296 11.241.753 -0,23 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-d5 Re2xe3 Rd5-e5 Re3-d2 Re5-d5 Rd2-e2 Rd5-e4 Re2-f2 Re4-f4 Rf2-e1 Rf4-e4 Re1-d1 Re4-e5 Rd1-c1 Re5-d6 Rc1-c2 Rd6-d5 Rc2-b1 Rd5-d6 Rb1-a2 Rd6-c6 Ra2-b2 Rc6-b6 Rb2-c2 Rb6-c6
20/31 00:02 1.763.552 11.232.815 -0,21 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-d5 Re2xe3 Rd5-e5 Re3-d2 Re5-d5 Rd2-e2 Rd5-e4 Re2-f2 Re4-f4 Rf2-e1 Rf4-e4 Re1-e2 Re4-f4 Re2-f2 Rf4-e4 Rf2-g3 Re4-e5 Rg3-h4 g7-g6 Rh4-h3 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rh3-g3
21/31 00:02 2.098.887 11.223.994 -0,15 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-d5 Re2xe3 Rd5-e5 Re3-d2 Re5-d5 Rd2-e2 Rd5-e4 Re2-f2 Re4-f4 Rf2-e1 Rf4-e4 Re1-e2 Re4-f4 Re2-f2 Rf4-e4 Rf2-g3 Re4-e5 Rg3-f3 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 b4-b5 Rf5-e5 b5-b6 Re5-d6 b6-b7 Rd6-c7
22/31 00:02 2.597.732 11.245.593 -0,23 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-d5 Re2xe3 Rd5-e5 Re3-d2 Re5-d5 Rd2-e2 Rd5-e4 Re2-f2 Re4-f4 Rf2-e1 Rf4-e4 Re1-e2 Re4-f4 Re2-f2 Rf4-e4 Rf2-e1 Re4-f4 Re1-d1 Rf4-e5 Rd1-c1 Re5-d5 Rc1-b1
23/31 00:02 3.014.828 11.333.939 -0,23 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-d5 Re2xe3 Rd5-e5 Re3-d2 Re5-d5 Rd2-e2 Rd5-e4 Re2-f2 Re4-f4 Rf2-e1 Rf4-e4 Re1-e2 Re4-f4 Re2-f2 Rf4-e4 Rf2-e1 Re4-f4 Re1-d1 Rf4-e5 Rd1-c1 Re5-d6 Rc1-b2 Rd6-c6
24/31 00:02 4.390.191 11.583.617 -0,23 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-d5 Re2xe3 Rd5-e5 Re3-d2 Re5-d5 Rd2-e2 Rd5-e4 Re2-e1 Re4-f4 Re1-d2 Rf4-e4 Rd2-c1 Re4-d5 Rc1-b1 Rd5-d6 Rb1-c2 Rd6-c6 Rc2-d1 Rc6-d5 Rd1-c1 Rd5-d6 Rc1-b2 Rd6-c6 Rb2-c2 Rc6-d6
25/31 00:03 7.588.017 6.541.393 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-d5 Re2-f3 Rd5-e6 Rf3xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
26/31 00:03 8.097.882 6.659.442 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-d5 Re2-f3 Rd5-e6 Rf3xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
27/31 00:03 10.042.528 7.072.202 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-d5 Re2-f3 Rd5-e6 Rf3xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
28/31 00:03 11.492.368 7.333.993 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
29/31 00:04 15.859.361 8.133.005 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
30/31 00:04 20.763.515 7.724.521 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
31/31 00:05 21.337.913 7.779.042 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
32/31 00:06 32.117.033 7.889.224 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
33/31 00:07 39.340.667 7.426.971 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
34/31 00:09 50.418.884 7.158.722 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
35/31 00:11 64.302.653 6.728.330 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
36/31 00:17 93.624.536 6.260.416 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
37/31 00:17 96.797.657 6.268.872 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
38/31 00:24 134.280.975 6.157.982 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
39/31 00:31 168.990.741 5.717.452 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
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Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: Kasparov-Deep Thought 1997 (second game)

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

Ignacio wrote:Again, you have a wrong FEN.

[d]8/3k2p1/3P1p1p/8/1Pp3P1/2P1p3/6P1/5K2 b - - 0 15

FEN: 8/3k2p1/3P1p1p/8/1Pp3P1/2P1p3/6P1/5K2 b - - 0 15

Stockfish-8SE-x64-popcnt_tp:
1/1 00:02 215 107.500 +1,04 Rd7-c6
2/2 00:02 356 178.000 +1,10 Rd7-c6 b4-b5+ Rc6xd6
3/3 00:02 510 255.000 +1,10 Rd7-c6 b4-b5+ Rc6xd6
4/4 00:02 884 442.000 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-c6 Re2xe3
5/5 00:02 1.327 663.500 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-c6 Re2xe3 g7-g6
6/6 00:02 5.347 1.782.333 -0,04 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-c6 Re2-f3 Rc6-b5 Rf3xe3
7/7 00:02 6.026 2.008.666 -0,18 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 g7-g6 Re2xe3 Rd6-d5 Re3-f4 Rd5-c6
8/8 00:02 7.215 2.405.000 -0,16 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 g7-g6 Re2xe3 Rd6-d5 Re3-f3 Rd5-c6 Rf3-f4
9/12 00:02 17.272 3.454.400 -0,48 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 g7-g6 Re2xe3 Rd6-d5 Re3-f4 Rd5-c6 Rf4-e4 Rc6-b5 Re4-d4
10/12 00:02 34.011 5.668.500 -0,50 Rd7-c6 Rf1-e2 Rc6xd6 Re2xe3 Rd6-e5 Re3-e2 Re5-e4 Re2-f2 g7-g6 Rf2-e2 h6-h5 g4xh5
11/16 00:02 153.433 8.524.055 -0,52 g7-g5 Rf1-e2 Rd7xd6 Re2xe3 Rd6-e5 Re3-f3 Re5-d5 Rf3-e2 Rd5-e4 Re2-f2 Re4-e5 Rf2-e3 Re5-d5 Re3-d2
12/18 00:02 159.328 8.851.555 -0,52 g7-g5 Rf1-e2 Rd7xd6 Re2xe3 Rd6-e5 Re3-f3 Re5-d5 Rf3-e2 Rd5-e4 Re2-f2 Re4-e5 Rf2-e3 Re5-d5 Re3-f3 Rd5-e5 Rf3-f2 Re5-e4 Rf2-e2
13/21 00:02 166.521 8.764.263 -0,52 g7-g5 Rf1-e2 Rd7xd6 Re2xe3 Rd6-e5 Re3-f3 Re5-d5 Rf3-e2 Rd5-e4 Re2-f2 Re4-e5 Rf2-e3 Re5-d5 Re3-d2 Rd5-e4 Rd2-e2
14/21 00:02 191.622 9.124.857 -0,31 g7-g5 Rf1-e2 Rd7xd6 Re2xe3 Rd6-e5 Re3-e2 Re5-e4 Re2-f2 Re4-e5 Rf2-e3 Re5-d5 Re3-f3 Rd5-e5 Rf3-f2 Re5-d6 Rf2-e2 Rd6-e5 Re2-f3 Re5-d5 g2-g3
15/21 00:02 207.857 9.448.045 -0,33 g7-g5 Rf1-e2 Rd7xd6 Re2xe3 Rd6-e5 Re3-e2 Re5-e4 Re2-f2 Re4-e5 Rf2-e3 Re5-d5 Re3-f3 Rd5-e5 Rf3-f2 Re5-d6 Rf2-e2 Rd6-e5 Re2-f3 Re5-d5
16/23 00:02 619.326 9.989.129 -0,31 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-d5 Re2xe3 Rd5-e5 g2-g3 Re5-d5 Re3-f4 g7-g6 Rf4-f3 g6-g5 Rf3-f2 Rd5-e4 Rf2-e2 Re4-d5 Re2-f3 Rd5-e5 Rf3-e3 Re5-d5 Re3-e2 Rd5-c6 Re2-f2 Rc6-d5
17/24 00:02 920.046 10.337.595 -0,14 Rd7-c6 Rf1-e2 Rc6xd6 Re2xe3 Rd6-e5 Re3-f3 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rf3-g3 Rf5-e4 Rg3-g4 g7-g6 Rg4-h4 Re4-f4 Rh4-h3 Rf4-e4
18/25 00:02 1.287.198 10.908.457 -0,11 Rd7-c6 Rf1-e2 Rc6xd6 Re2xe3 Rd6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c1 Rf5-e5 Rc1-b2 Re5-d5 Rb2-a3 Rd5-c6 Ra3-a4 g7-g5 b4-b5+ Rc6-c5 Ra4-a5 h6-h5
19/31 00:02 1.641.296 11.241.753 -0,23 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-d5 Re2xe3 Rd5-e5 Re3-d2 Re5-d5 Rd2-e2 Rd5-e4 Re2-f2 Re4-f4 Rf2-e1 Rf4-e4 Re1-d1 Re4-e5 Rd1-c1 Re5-d6 Rc1-c2 Rd6-d5 Rc2-b1 Rd5-d6 Rb1-a2 Rd6-c6 Ra2-b2 Rc6-b6 Rb2-c2 Rb6-c6
20/31 00:02 1.763.552 11.232.815 -0,21 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-d5 Re2xe3 Rd5-e5 Re3-d2 Re5-d5 Rd2-e2 Rd5-e4 Re2-f2 Re4-f4 Rf2-e1 Rf4-e4 Re1-e2 Re4-f4 Re2-f2 Rf4-e4 Rf2-g3 Re4-e5 Rg3-h4 g7-g6 Rh4-h3 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rh3-g3
21/31 00:02 2.098.887 11.223.994 -0,15 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-d5 Re2xe3 Rd5-e5 Re3-d2 Re5-d5 Rd2-e2 Rd5-e4 Re2-f2 Re4-f4 Rf2-e1 Rf4-e4 Re1-e2 Re4-f4 Re2-f2 Rf4-e4 Rf2-g3 Re4-e5 Rg3-f3 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 b4-b5 Rf5-e5 b5-b6 Re5-d6 b6-b7 Rd6-c7
22/31 00:02 2.597.732 11.245.593 -0,23 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-d5 Re2xe3 Rd5-e5 Re3-d2 Re5-d5 Rd2-e2 Rd5-e4 Re2-f2 Re4-f4 Rf2-e1 Rf4-e4 Re1-e2 Re4-f4 Re2-f2 Rf4-e4 Rf2-e1 Re4-f4 Re1-d1 Rf4-e5 Rd1-c1 Re5-d5 Rc1-b1
23/31 00:02 3.014.828 11.333.939 -0,23 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-d5 Re2xe3 Rd5-e5 Re3-d2 Re5-d5 Rd2-e2 Rd5-e4 Re2-f2 Re4-f4 Rf2-e1 Rf4-e4 Re1-e2 Re4-f4 Re2-f2 Rf4-e4 Rf2-e1 Re4-f4 Re1-d1 Rf4-e5 Rd1-c1 Re5-d6 Rc1-b2 Rd6-c6
24/31 00:02 4.390.191 11.583.617 -0,23 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-d5 Re2xe3 Rd5-e5 Re3-d2 Re5-d5 Rd2-e2 Rd5-e4 Re2-e1 Re4-f4 Re1-d2 Rf4-e4 Rd2-c1 Re4-d5 Rc1-b1 Rd5-d6 Rb1-c2 Rd6-c6 Rc2-d1 Rc6-d5 Rd1-c1 Rd5-d6 Rc1-b2 Rd6-c6 Rb2-c2 Rc6-d6
25/31 00:03 7.588.017 6.541.393 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-d5 Re2-f3 Rd5-e6 Rf3xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
26/31 00:03 8.097.882 6.659.442 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-d5 Re2-f3 Rd5-e6 Rf3xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
27/31 00:03 10.042.528 7.072.202 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-d5 Re2-f3 Rd5-e6 Rf3xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
28/31 00:03 11.492.368 7.333.993 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
29/31 00:04 15.859.361 8.133.005 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
30/31 00:04 20.763.515 7.724.521 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
31/31 00:05 21.337.913 7.779.042 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
32/31 00:06 32.117.033 7.889.224 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
33/31 00:07 39.340.667 7.426.971 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
34/31 00:09 50.418.884 7.158.722 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
35/31 00:11 64.302.653 6.728.330 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
36/31 00:17 93.624.536 6.260.416 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
37/31 00:17 96.797.657 6.268.872 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
38/31 00:24 134.280.975 6.157.982 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
39/31 00:31 168.990.741 5.717.452 0,00 Rd7xd6 Rf1-e2 Rd6-e6 Re2xe3 Re6-e5 Re3-d2 f6-f5 g4xf5 Re5xf5 Rd2-c2 h6-h5 g2-g3 g7-g5 Rc2-d2 h5-h4 g3xh4 g5xh4
I don't know whose fen is wrong, and can never be fully certain absolutely every single line is won, there is no man on Earth and no existing chess engine that could know that, from 40 moves in TCEC, SF and Komodo make some 10 mistakes or so at the very least, that is about natural, especially in more difficult positions.

what I know is that:

- 90% of all lines are won for white, in today's analysis, as well as in yesterday's
- if black manages some draw, this would only be by a miraculous escape

that is more than sufficient for me to declare the position a white win.

in a random match of 100 games, randomising a bit move choices to avoid repetition, white will win these very same 90%.

that is more than sufficient for me.

I am not going into the same trap again as in the Aronian-Carlsen game, when I am struggling alone to make sense of what is going on, and 10 people are stubbornly opposing me, while all they have to do is switch on their powerful computers and stare at what SF, Komodo and Houdini will say.

people who followed the lines closer know I am right about white's winning chances.
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Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: Kasparov-Deep Thought 1997 (second game)

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

to make my task easier and your a bit more difficult, anyone able to conclusively prove beyond any doubt, with lines for each and every variation(some 100 billion or so) that black has a draw?
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MikeGL
Posts: 1010
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:49 pm

Re: Kasparov-Deep Thought 1997 (second game)

Post by MikeGL »

Lyudmil Tsvetkov wrote:to make my task easier and your a bit more difficult, anyone able to conclusively prove beyond any doubt, with lines for each and every variation(some 100 billion or so) that black has a draw?
Can we at least have a recap of what actually was played on the previous 6
pages of move discussions, where takebacks of move was allowed even
though there was no time control at all.

On 45.Ra6 variation:
Lyudmi (Bulgaria)-Rodolfo (Italy) 0.5 - 0.5
Lyudmil (Bulgaria)-Ignacio (Spain) 0.5 - 0.5

Here's the complete game analysis of these draws provided by previous 6 pages:

[pgn]
[Event "IBM Man-Machine, New York USA"]
[Site "New York, NY USA"]
[Date "1997.05.04"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Deep Blue (Computer)"]
[Black "Garry Kasparov"]
[Result "1-0"]
[TimeControl "0+2"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "89"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8.
c3 O-O 9. h3 h6 10. d4 Re8 11. Nbd2 Bf8 12. Nf1 Bd7 13. Ng3 Na5 14. Bc2 c5
15. b3 Nc6 16. d5 Ne7 17. Be3 Ng6 18. Qd2 Nh7 19. a4 Nh4 20. Nxh4 Qxh4 21.
Qe2 Qd8 22. b4 Qc7 23. Rec1 c4 24. Ra3 Rec8 25. Rca1 Qd8 26. f4 Nf6 27.
fxe5 dxe5 28. Qf1 Ne8 29. Qf2 Nd6 30. Bb6 Qe8 31. R3a2 Be7 32. Bc5 Bf8 33.
Nf5 Bxf5 34. exf5 f6 35. Bxd6 Bxd6 36. axb5 axb5 37. Be4 Rxa2 38. Qxa2 Qd7
39. Qa7 Rc7 40. Qb6 Rb7 41. Ra8+ Kf7 42. Qa6 Qc7 43. Qc6 Qb6+ 44. Kf1 Rb8 (45. Ra6 {Lyudmil Tsvetkov-Rodolfo Leoni 0.5-0.5} Qe3 46. Qxd6 Re8
47. Qc7+ Re7 48. Qc6 Qxe4 49. d6 Qxf5+ 50. Kg1 Rd7 51. Qxb5 Qe6 52. Qc5 Kg6
53. Rc6 e4 54. Qxc4 ({Lyudmil Tsvetkov-Ignacio Santos 0.5-0.5}54. Qd4 e3
55. Qg4+ Kf7 56. Rc7 Qxg4 57. hxg4 Ke6 58. Rxd7 Kxd7 59. Kf1 Kxd6 60. Ke2
Ke6 61. Kxe3 Ke5 62. Kd2 f5 63. gxf5 Kxf5 64. Kc2 h5 65. g3 g5 66. Kd2 h4
67. gxh4 gxh4 68. Ke3 {=}) 54. .. Qxc4 55. Rxc4 Kf5 56. b5 Ke5 57. Rb4 Kd5
58. b6 Kc6 59. c4 Rd8 60. Rb5 Rf8 61. Kf2 Kxd6 62. g4 g6 63. Ke3 f5 64.
gxf5 gxf5 65. h4 Kc6 66. b7 Kc7 67. b8=R Rxb8 68. Rxf5 Re8 69. Rf6 Kd7 70.
c5 Re5 71. c6+ Kc7 72. Rxh6 Re8 73. h5 Re5 74. Kf2 Rf5+ 75. Ke1 Re5 76. Kf2
{=}) 45. Ra6 {1-0} 1-0
[/pgn]


Looks like it is final, 45.Ra6 only draws, while 45.Qd7+ and 45.Qxb6 was stronger. Could this be a strong case for Kasparov that humans intervened by forcing
the weaker 45.Ra6 move for Deep Blue? Maybe I am just wrong because it proves
nothing except SF8 is just stronger than Deep Blue 2 that's why DB2 played the weaker 45.Ra6 move.


regards
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MikeGL
Posts: 1010
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:49 pm

Re: Kasparov-Deep Thought 1997 (second game)

Post by MikeGL »

Copy paste and edit issues. :oops: :oops:
Correct format:

[pgn]
[Event "IBM Man-Machine, New York USA"]
[Site "New York, NY USA"]
[Date "1997.05.04"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Deep Blue (Computer)"]
[Black "Garry Kasparov"]
[Result "1-0"]
[TimeControl "0+2"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "89"]
[WhiteType "human"]
[BlackType "human"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 d6 8.
c3 O-O 9. h3 h6 10. d4 Re8 11. Nbd2 Bf8 12. Nf1 Bd7 13. Ng3 Na5 14. Bc2 c5
15. b3 Nc6 16. d5 Ne7 17. Be3 Ng6 18. Qd2 Nh7 19. a4 Nh4 20. Nxh4 Qxh4 21.
Qe2 Qd8 22. b4 Qc7 23. Rec1 c4 24. Ra3 Rec8 25. Rca1 Qd8 26. f4 Nf6 27.
fxe5 dxe5 28. Qf1 Ne8 29. Qf2 Nd6 30. Bb6 Qe8 31. R3a2 Be7 32. Bc5 Bf8 33.
Nf5 Bxf5 34. exf5 f6 35. Bxd6 Bxd6 36. axb5 axb5 37. Be4 Rxa2 38. Qxa2 Qd7
39. Qa7 Rc7 40. Qb6 Rb7 41. Ra8+ Kf7 42. Qa6 Qc7 43. Qc6 Qb6+ 44. Kf1 Rb8
45. Ra6 (45. Ra6 {Lyudmil Tsvetkov-Rodolfo Leoni 0.5-0.5} Qe3 46. Qxd6 Re8 47. Qc7+ Re7 48. Qc6 Qxe4 49. d6 Qxf5+
50. Kg1 Rd7 51. Qxb5 Qe6 52. Qc5 Kg6 53. Rc6 e4 54. Qxc4 ({Lyudmil Tsvetkov-Ignacio Santos 0.5-0.5}54. Qd4 e3 55.
Qg4+ Kf7 56. Rc7 Qxg4 57. hxg4 Ke6 58. Rxd7 Kxd7 59. Kf1 Kxd6 60. Ke2 Ke6
61. Kxe3 Ke5 62. Kd2 f5 63. gxf5 Kxf5 64. Kc2 h5 65. g3 g5 66. Kd2 h4 67.
gxh4 gxh4 68. Ke3=) 54. .. Qxc4 55. Rxc4 Kf5 56. b5 Ke5 57. Rb4 Kd5 58. b6
Kc6 59. c4 Rd8 60. Rb5 Rf8 61. Kf2 Kxd6 62. g4 g6 63. Ke3 f5 64. gxf5 gxf5
65. h4 Kc6 66. b7 Kc7 67. b8=R Rxb8 68. Rxf5 Re8 69. Rf6 Kd7 70. c5 Re5 71.
c6+ Kc7 72. Rxh6 Re8 73. h5 Re5 74. Kf2 Rf5+ 75. Ke1 Re5 76. Kf2=) 1-0 {45.Ra6 Kasparov resigned 1-0}
[/pgn] :oops:

regards
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Lyudmil Tsvetkov
Posts: 6052
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:41 pm

Re: Kasparov-Deep Thought 1997 (second game)

Post by Lyudmil Tsvetkov »

this is my last post, because people seem not to understand.

another good winning try for white is Qc4 instead of Qg4, and then Qe5 Qg4 Kh7 Rc5 Qe8 Kf1 Rd6 Rc7 e2 Qe2 Qd8 Qe4 Kg8 Rc5:

[d]3q2k1/6p1/3r1p1p/2R5/1P2Q3/2P4P/6P1/5K2 b - - 0 19

I say this is one for white too.

anyone able to prove beyond any doubt black has a draw?

so that, winning lines abound, and it is not that easy to prove everything.
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