Thank you for this information.
Is cloning a hobby?
Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw
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- Posts: 725
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- Location: Munich, Germany
- Full name: Dr. Oliver Brausch
Re: Is cloning a hobby?
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- Posts: 725
- Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:38 pm
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- Full name: Dr. Oliver Brausch
Re: Is cloning a hobby?
This is not true for many engines. Of course, this may be the reason they are fighting for ELO 2500-2700.AndrewGrant wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:09 pmI think you may be surprised actually. Almost every open-source engine thats 1) Not Stockfish, and 2) Not a Leela fork, has Ethereal mentioned in small or large parts. I think Ethereal has become the Stockfish of learning. Once you have a working engine, then you can go take snippets from Stockfish.
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- Full name: Dr. Oliver Brausch
Re: Is cloning a hobby?
Of course, it is more interesting. If you have look at my engines from version 2 ot 5 here: https://github.com/olithink/maksimKorzh wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:35 pm Isn't it more interesting to walk through the entire path absolutely from scratch - from complete noob to at least working engine and then hopefully gain a skill to learn from stronger engines?
you will see that is was newly developed from scratch every main version. It isn't just interesting, it is successful:
Code: Select all
# PLAYER : RATING ERROR POINTS PLAYED (%) W D L D(%) CFS(%) (~ELO)
1 OliThink 5.7.4 : 1052 33 3750.5 4000 93.8 3609 283 108 7.1 100 2643
2 OliThink 5.3.3 : 798 29 2962.0 4000 74.0 2769 386 845 9.7 100 2389
3 OliThink 4.1.3 : 506 25 1902.5 4000 47.6 1728 349 1923 8.7 100 2097
4 OliThink 3.0.7 : 310 22 1174.0 4000 29.4 1051 246 2703 6.2 100 1901
5 OliPow 2.2.3 : 0 ---- 211.0 4000 5.3 142 138 3720 3.5 --- 1591
White advantage = -0.53 +/- 2.54
Draw rate (equal opponents) = 16.67 % +/- 0.62
http://www.open-aurec.com/wbforum/viewt ... 18&t=44158
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- Full name: Maksim Korzh
Re: Is cloning a hobby?
Hi OliverOliverBr wrote: ↑Sat Sep 19, 2020 12:54 amOf course, it is more interesting. If you have look at my engines from version 2 ot 5 here: https://github.com/olithink/maksimKorzh wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:35 pm Isn't it more interesting to walk through the entire path absolutely from scratch - from complete noob to at least working engine and then hopefully gain a skill to learn from stronger engines?
you will see that is was newly developed from scratch every main version. It isn't just interesting, it is successful:
Perhaps this post may be interesting:Code: Select all
# PLAYER : RATING ERROR POINTS PLAYED (%) W D L D(%) CFS(%) (~ELO) 1 OliThink 5.7.4 : 1052 33 3750.5 4000 93.8 3609 283 108 7.1 100 2643 2 OliThink 5.3.3 : 798 29 2962.0 4000 74.0 2769 386 845 9.7 100 2389 3 OliThink 4.1.3 : 506 25 1902.5 4000 47.6 1728 349 1923 8.7 100 2097 4 OliThink 3.0.7 : 310 22 1174.0 4000 29.4 1051 246 2703 6.2 100 1901 5 OliPow 2.2.3 : 0 ---- 211.0 4000 5.3 142 138 3720 3.5 --- 1591 White advantage = -0.53 +/- 2.54 Draw rate (equal opponents) = 16.67 % +/- 0.62
http://www.open-aurec.com/wbforum/viewt ... 18&t=44158
I'm researching your work quite heavily within the last time)))
I've already seen a table with this comparison (you've posted it before, well at least it looks familiar to me)
Your contribution to the community is very big
re: post link by Tord
- OMG! date of post: 16 Sep 2003, 12:23 and "If I ever decide
to make a bitboard chess engine, I will study OliThink closely.
Tord" ahhh!!! Stockfish wasn't yet created at that time right?
I also imagine if Tord would ever watch my youtube series)))
Tord: I've never seen such a weird code monkey engine before, if I ever want to decrease my programming skills I will definitely study BBC's source code))))
Didactic chess engines:
https://www.chessprogramming.org/Maksim_Korzh
Chess programming YouTube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCB9-pr ... KKqDgXhsMQ
https://www.chessprogramming.org/Maksim_Korzh
Chess programming YouTube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCB9-pr ... KKqDgXhsMQ
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- Full name: Rasmus Althoff
Re: Is cloning a hobby?
For my project, the focus is on the microcontroller based hardware. It was already a lot of work to design and build the dedicated unit, and write the complete low level drivers plus the embedded user interface. Writing a chess engine on top of that would have been too much, given how much work it already was to bring a full-blown PC engine to a microcontroller with just 1MB ROM and 192kB RAM.AndrewGrant wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:39 pmReasons to clone a project and be honest about it:
* You want to work on parts of an engine, but don't want to write it from the ground up
* You think you might be able to do better than the original, but only after large refactoring
NG-Play was the top OSS engine in C that "only" needed twice the available RAM for the DATA+BSS sections so that there was some hope. The desire to change its chess style only arose afterwards. The current PC version sits 200 Elo above the baseline so that there's also some original engine work. However, I've always been clear about the origins of my project, thus I've never met cloning accusations.
Rasmus Althoff
https://www.ct800.net
https://www.ct800.net
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- Full name: Andrew Grant
Re: Is cloning a hobby?
That is the crucial point. If someone releases an open source project, we are free to debate the merits of it with full knowledge. Maybe a project is "too" similar to another, maybe it is not. That can be a discussion, a debate. When you remove the openness, then you run into issues. You can do no wrong if your work is open-source. The cards are all on the table.
Friendly reminder that stealing is a crime, is wrong, and makes you a thief.
"Those who can't do, clone instead" - Eduard ( A real life friend, not this forum's Eduard )
"Those who can't do, clone instead" - Eduard ( A real life friend, not this forum's Eduard )
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Re: Is cloning a hobby?
In German we have a saying: "Die Hose runterlassen."
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Re: Is cloning a hobby?
I'd like to compare the following routes of making an ultimately closed-source derivative of permissively (non-GNU) licensed origins.
1. Developing it privately until its play becomes distinct enough from the origins' and stronger than them, then opensourcing the resulting v0.0 as a proof of programming skill and creativity (optionally withholding some own WIP improvements), then making further versions proprietary (as allowed by the origins' licenses).
2. Making all the releases (necessarily distinct enough) proprietary, just disclosing all the origins and showing gradual play improvement.
Do I take it right that the CC community will receive the derivative a lot warmer if it follows route 1?
1. Developing it privately until its play becomes distinct enough from the origins' and stronger than them, then opensourcing the resulting v0.0 as a proof of programming skill and creativity (optionally withholding some own WIP improvements), then making further versions proprietary (as allowed by the origins' licenses).
2. Making all the releases (necessarily distinct enough) proprietary, just disclosing all the origins and showing gradual play improvement.
Do I take it right that the CC community will receive the derivative a lot warmer if it follows route 1?
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- Full name: Dr. Oliver Brausch
Re: Is cloning a hobby?
To be honest, I don't care if somebofy stole an idea from someone or vice versa. Ideas are no property.
But, my opinion is:
An engine that is not open source is suspicious.
Why is it closed? Will it ever beat Leela or Stockfish? Nope, it won't.
Perhaps we should just remove all closed source engines from the list and not talk about them anymore. Rybka, Robbolito, Houdini, etc.?! Who cares?
But, my opinion is:
An engine that is not open source is suspicious.
Why is it closed? Will it ever beat Leela or Stockfish? Nope, it won't.
Perhaps we should just remove all closed source engines from the list and not talk about them anymore. Rybka, Robbolito, Houdini, etc.?! Who cares?
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- Full name: Alexander Litov
Re: Is cloning a hobby?
When I wanted to get started with a real chess engine like ~2 month ago i did not really wanted to start from scratch,
because i did it once already with my previous chess variant work and well, i was lazy and wanted to see games faster.
But at the same time it made 0 sense to me to start with something that is already strong, because for me all the fun
is in seeing how can the lines of code you just wrote translates into the the engine strength. I like to see how one version
outplays another, or how it blunders stupidly because i made a mistake.
That`s why i started with ~1700 rated engine as a base.
I was very hesitant in posting Drofa 1.0.0 here, because even though it had over 300 elo more than Shallow Blue (engine that i forked), even with
some of the files rewritten completely, i somehow felt that its not entirely different engine.
Now my dev version is even more elo ahead with a lot of search patches, and its still arent feel quit right about calling it separate engine (in readme and on a github i still call it "highly advanced fork" or smth like that).
But well, i`m having fun with running matches with Drofa and improving somewhat my overall bad coding skills, and this was the main goal.
because i did it once already with my previous chess variant work and well, i was lazy and wanted to see games faster.
But at the same time it made 0 sense to me to start with something that is already strong, because for me all the fun
is in seeing how can the lines of code you just wrote translates into the the engine strength. I like to see how one version
outplays another, or how it blunders stupidly because i made a mistake.
That`s why i started with ~1700 rated engine as a base.
I was very hesitant in posting Drofa 1.0.0 here, because even though it had over 300 elo more than Shallow Blue (engine that i forked), even with
some of the files rewritten completely, i somehow felt that its not entirely different engine.
Now my dev version is even more elo ahead with a lot of search patches, and its still arent feel quit right about calling it separate engine (in readme and on a github i still call it "highly advanced fork" or smth like that).
But well, i`m having fun with running matches with Drofa and improving somewhat my overall bad coding skills, and this was the main goal.