We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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chrisw
Posts: 4790
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:28 pm
Location: Midi-Pyrénées
Full name: Christopher Whittington

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by chrisw »

lkaufman wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 4:45 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 9:08 am
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.21"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2 MCTS"]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "15"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]

{[#]} 1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6
8. O-O g6 [/pgn]

This 7.e6 move is known in normal chess here as the refutation of 5...Nc6, I remember learning that over half a century ago, but this doesn't tell us anything about whether it is good or bad at knight odds.
Yes, I vaguely remember that too, but I used to play earlier g6 in this Alekhine, but then went off g6 for reasons lost in the mists of time. I discounted e6 on grounds “not a computer move”. Good move in the circumstances.

g6
[pgn] [Event "Knight Odds Match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "17"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 [/pgn]
[/quote]

a5
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lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 9:08 am
[pgn] [Event "Knight Odds Match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "17"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 [/pgn]
a5
[/quote]

[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "19"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 * [/pgn]
Komodo rules!
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chrisw
Posts: 4790
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:28 pm
Location: Midi-Pyrénées
Full name: Christopher Whittington

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by chrisw »

lkaufman wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 7:43 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 9:08 am
[pgn] [Event "Knight Odds Match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "17"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 [/pgn]
a5
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "19"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 [/pgn]
[/quote]

Bxf3
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Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Chessqueen »

chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 8:07 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 7:43 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 9:08 am
[pgn] [Event "Knight Odds Match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "17"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 [/pgn]
a5
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "19"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 [/pgn]
Bxf3
[/quote]

I can only see that it will take quite some effort to mobilize the Black pieces, whereas all of White pieces are FREE to move and start to cause real pressure, and of course all top 4 engines are very dangerous when their pieces are free to move in any directions. At some point Chrisw will be forced to trade a piece for two pawns to free his other pieces, but unless Chrisw is of the same strength of Fruit 2.2.1 or close to i,t my money is on Dragon 2 MCTS. :shock:
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Chessqueen
Posts: 5685
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2018 2:16 am
Location: Moving
Full name: Jorge Picado

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Chessqueen »

Chessqueen wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 9:04 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 8:07 pm
lkaufman wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 7:43 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 9:08 am
[pgn] [Event "Knight Odds Match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "17"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 [/pgn]
a5
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "19"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 [/pgn]
Bxf3
I can only see that it will take quite some effort to mobilize the Black pieces, whereas all of White pieces are FREE to move and start to cause real pressure, and of course all top 4 engines are very dangerous when their pieces are free to move in any directions. At some point Chrisw will be forced to trade a piece for two pawns to free his other pieces, but unless Chrisw is of the same strength of Fruit 2.2.1 or close to i,t my money is on Dragon 2 MCTS. :shock:
[/quote]

Will this game end by this Sunday ? :roll:
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lkaufman
Posts: 6284
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:15 am
Location: Maryland USA
Full name: Larry Kaufman

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by lkaufman »

chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 8:07 pm
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "19"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 [/pgn]
Bxf3
[/quote]

[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "21"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 *[/pgn]
Komodo rules!
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chrisw
Posts: 4790
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:28 pm
Location: Midi-Pyrénées
Full name: Christopher Whittington

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by chrisw »

lkaufman wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 10:30 pm
chrisw wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 8:07 pm
[Site "talkchess"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "19"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 [/pgn]
Bxf3
[pgn] [Event "knight odds match"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2021.05.22"]
[Round "1"]
[White "KomodoDragon2, MCTS."]
[Black "Whittington, Chris"]
[Result "*"]
[Annotator "Kaufman,Larry"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R1BQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[PlyCount "21"]
[EventDate "2021.05.20"]
[EventType "match"]

1. e4 Nf6 2. e5 Nd5 3. d4 d6 4. Nf3 Bg4 5. Be2 Nc6 6. c4 Nb6 7. e6 fxe6 8. O-O
g6 9. a4 a5 10. d5 Bxf3 11. Bxf3 exd5[/pgn]
[/quote]

exd5
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towforce
Posts: 12793
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:57 am
Location: Birmingham UK
Full name: Graham Laight

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by towforce »

Chessqueen wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 10:29 pmI can only see that it will take quite some effort to mobilize the Black pieces, whereas all of White pieces are FREE to move and start to cause real pressure, and of course all top 4 engines are very dangerous when their pieces are free to move in any directions. At some point Chrisw will be forced to trade a piece for two pawns to free his other pieces, but unless Chrisw is of the same strength of Fruit 2.2.1 or close to i,t my money is on Dragon 2 MCTS. :shock:

My analysis is that white will generate pressure, but it won't be enough to compensate for being so far down in material. When the attack finally falters, black will have a piece and at least one (maybe two) extra pawns.

Will this game end by this Sunday ? :roll:

No.
Human chess is partly about tactics and strategy, but mostly about memory
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Uri Blass
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Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by Uri Blass »

I think it is unfair that Chessqueen and towforce post comments about the game.
These comments may change the result of the game.
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towforce
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Location: Birmingham UK
Full name: Graham Laight

Re: We are reaching the Max Odds that a top engine can give the top 3 GM's

Post by towforce »

Uri Blass wrote: ↑Sat May 22, 2021 11:37 pm I think it is unfair that Chessqueen and towforce post comments about the game.
These comments may change the result of the game.

I have tried to make my comments as general and as unhelpful as possible (not that I'm a good enough player to help either of these two players), but for the integrity of the game I will now stop doing even that.
Human chess is partly about tactics and strategy, but mostly about memory
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