Some Ethereal 13 NNUE Games

[carldaman]

Actually, I don't think I'm seeing any Ethereal 13 NNUE wins in this thread, despite the considerable effort invested to first play and then post all these games.

Can anyone actually post some impressive Ethereal 13 wins, preferably a) wins against stronger opponents, or b) spectacular wins vs equal or weaker foes?

Similarly, can anyone produce any great moves by Ethereal 13 NNUE that stronger engines cannot find? Or perhaps some examples of original play?

I mean, when a strong commercial program is released, shouldn't there be some real expectations of the value that is being offered in exchange for the purchasing price?

By the way, I do understand and respect the fact that Andrew has put up a lot of time and effort to come up with an original product here, so the above questions should really apply to all commercial releases, not just his.

[AndrewGrant]

Actually, I don't think I'm seeing any Ethereal 13 NNUE wins in this thread, despite the considerable effort invested to first play and then post all these games.

Can anyone actually post some impressive Ethereal 13 wins, preferably a) wins against stronger opponents, or b) spectacular wins vs equal or weaker foes?

Similarly, can anyone produce any great moves by Ethereal 13 NNUE that stronger engines cannot find? Or perhaps some examples of original play?

I mean, when a strong commercial program is released, shouldn't there be some real expectations of the value that is being offered in exchange for the purchasing price?

By the way, I do understand and respect the fact that Andrew has put up a lot of time and effort to come up with an original product here, so the above questions should really apply to all commercial releases, not just his.

Fairly hard to produce something specuatlor over the board against: Stockfish, Stockfish forks, Stockfish clones, engines using Stockfish nets, engines using the Stockfish data, engines using the Stockfish training apparatus. Think most of those games fell under that umbrella, but I only scimmed the titles and don't recognize all the derivatives that pop up every fifteen seconds.

The selling point of Ethereal is never going to be that it beats SF and K. If not for NNUE, I would have passed K by now I believe, but regardless. The selling point is that is an engine disconnected from what Stockfish is doing. Its an alternative for extremely high elo gameplay, having its own way of doing things which leads to variations in play over the board.

Most seem happy to just package their engine with the copy pasted SF and an SF network. I did that to showcase how trivial it is and how its no feat ... took < 2 hrs to do it if I recall. You can watch that version beat up SF 12 classical like its Rybka, but you just end up with another SF, but its worse than the real product. I'll never try to be "Stockfish, but worse" in the way that FatFritz has done, and many more. :shrug:

</rant>

[mclane]

Its an original alternative.
I appreciate the idea very much.
We need different approaches.

[Eduard]

Actually, I don't think I'm seeing any Ethereal 13 NNUE wins in this thread, despite the considerable effort invested to first play and then post all these games.

Can anyone actually post some impressive Ethereal 13 wins, preferably a) wins against stronger opponents, or b) spectacular wins vs equal or weaker foes?

Similarly, can anyone produce any great moves by Ethereal 13 NNUE that stronger engines cannot find? Or perhaps some examples of original play?

I mean, when a strong commercial program is released, shouldn't there be some real expectations of the value that is being offered in exchange for the purchasing price?

By the way, I do understand and respect the fact that Andrew has put up a lot of time and effort to come up with an original product here, so the above questions should really apply to all commercial releases, not just his.

I only play live on servers. Unfortunately, Ethereal has no chance. I haven't seen a win against Dragon either.

[sarona]

The selling point is that is an engine disconnected from what Stockfish is doing. Its an alternative for extremely high elo gameplay, having its own way of doing things which leads to variations in play over the board.

This is exactly why I purchased Ethereal 13 NNUE and do not regret it at all.

And I totally agree with mclane. We need different approaches.

[Chessqueen]

Actually, I don't think I'm seeing any Ethereal 13 NNUE wins in this thread, despite the considerable effort invested to first play and then post all these games.

Can anyone actually post some impressive Ethereal 13 wins, preferably a) wins against stronger opponents, or b) spectacular wins vs equal or weaker foes?

Similarly, can anyone produce any great moves by Ethereal 13 NNUE that stronger engines cannot find? Or perhaps some examples of original play?

I mean, when a strong commercial program is released, shouldn't there be some real expectations of the value that is being offered in exchange for the purchasing price?

By the way, I do understand and respect the fact that Andrew has put up a lot of time and effort to come up with an original product here, so the above questions should really apply to all commercial releases, not just his.

I only play live on servers. Unfortunately, Ethereal has no chance. I haven't seen a win against Dragon either.

If you are buying it for the strength, then you are looking at the wrong engine, get Stockfish 13 NNUE for FREE

Rank Engine Score Ig Et S-B
1 Igel-x64_bmi2_avx2_3_0_5 11.5/20 · ·· ·· ·· ·· ·· ·· ·· ·· ===10=0=====11=1===1 97.75
2 Ethereal-avx2 8.5/20 ===01=1=====00=0===0 · ·· ·· ·· ·· ·· ·· ·· ·· 97.75


20 games played / Tournament is finished

Tournament start: 2021.06.09, 22:38:49
Latest update: 2021.06.13, 12:41:04
Site/ Country: MININT-UB2PIMJ, United States
Level: Tournament Game in 5 Minutes
Hardware: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4770 CPU @ 3.40GHz with 15.9 GB Memory
Operating system: Windows 10 Enterprise Professional (Build 9200) 64 bit
PGN-File: C:\Program Files (x86)\Arena\Arena.pgn
Table created with: Arena 3.5.1

[Eduard]

Actually, I don't think I'm seeing any Ethereal 13 NNUE wins in this thread, despite the considerable effort invested to first play and then post all these games.

Can anyone actually post some impressive Ethereal 13 wins, preferably a) wins against stronger opponents, or b) spectacular wins vs equal or weaker foes?

Similarly, can anyone produce any great moves by Ethereal 13 NNUE that stronger engines cannot find? Or perhaps some examples of original play?

I mean, when a strong commercial program is released, shouldn't there be some real expectations of the value that is being offered in exchange for the purchasing price?

By the way, I do understand and respect the fact that Andrew has put up a lot of time and effort to come up with an original product here, so the above questions should really apply to all commercial releases, not just his.

Fairly hard to produce something specuatlor over the board against: Stockfish, Stockfish forks, Stockfish clones, engines using Stockfish nets, engines using the Stockfish data, engines using the Stockfish training apparatus. Think most of those games fell under that umbrella, but I only scimmed the titles and don't recognize all the derivatives that pop up every fifteen seconds.

The selling point of Ethereal is never going to be that it beats SF and K. If not for NNUE, I would have passed K by now I believe, but regardless. The selling point is that is an engine disconnected from what Stockfish is doing. Its an alternative for extremely high elo gameplay, having its own way of doing things which leads to variations in play over the board.

Most seem happy to just package their engine with the copy pasted SF and an SF network. I did that to showcase how trivial it is and how its no feat ... took < 2 hrs to do it if I recall. You can watch that version beat up SF 12 classical like its Rybka, but you just end up with another SF, but its worse than the real product. I'll never try to be "Stockfish, but worse" in the way that FatFritz has done, and many more. :shrug:

</rant>

You forget, some interesting options that Stockfish no longer has. It's very interesting to play with SugaR AI (and other derivates like Eman). SugaR AI has a learning function, all evals are saved in an experience file. This file can also be used as a book. You don't have to reinvent the bike. New interesting functions are more important to me than a weaker new bike. I'm now interested in the best, and I don't care if it's commercial or not. I only want the best.

[Eduard]

Actually, I don't think I'm seeing any Ethereal 13 NNUE wins in this thread, despite the considerable effort invested to first play and then post all these games.

Can anyone actually post some impressive Ethereal 13 wins, preferably a) wins against stronger opponents, or b) spectacular wins vs equal or weaker foes?

Similarly, can anyone produce any great moves by Ethereal 13 NNUE that stronger engines cannot find? Or perhaps some examples of original play?

I mean, when a strong commercial program is released, shouldn't there be some real expectations of the value that is being offered in exchange for the purchasing price?

By the way, I do understand and respect the fact that Andrew has put up a lot of time and effort to come up with an original product here, so the above questions should really apply to all commercial releases, not just his.

I only play live on servers. Unfortunately, Ethereal has no chance. I haven't seen a win against Dragon either.

If you are buying it for the strength, then you are looking at the wrong engine, get Stockfish 13 NNUE for FREE

Rank Engine Score Ig Et S-B
1 Igel-x64_bmi2_avx2_3_0_5 11.5/20 · ·· ·· ·· ·· ·· ·· ·· ·· ===10=0=====11=1===1 97.75
2 Ethereal-avx2 8.5/20 ===01=1=====00=0===0 · ·· ·· ·· ·· ·· ·· ·· ·· 97.75


20 games played / Tournament is finished

Tournament start: 2021.06.09, 22:38:49
Latest update: 2021.06.13, 12:41:04
Site/ Country: MININT-UB2PIMJ, United States
Level: Tournament Game in 5 Minutes
Hardware: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4770 CPU @ 3.40GHz with 15.9 GB Memory
Operating system: Windows 10 Enterprise Professional (Build 9200) 64 bit
PGN-File: C:\Program Files (x86)\Arena\Arena.pgn
Table created with: Arena 3.5.1

I am always interested in everything new! But I'm interested in new interesting features! Which engines can:

Change selectivity
Switch off Nullmove
Tactic mode
Learning, etc.

Yes there are. And I use them all too (CiChess, Cfish_EXT, ShashChess, Eman, SugaR AI). I'm looking for new challenges to play on the server to get the most out of it. Even if I were to play correspondence chess, these engines would be more of an advantage to me. Those are the facts, sorry.

[carldaman]

Yes, particularly if an engine is not the strongest, then the presence of useful features can be a strong selling point. Komodo does offer MCTS, as well as personalities, an effective and adjustable smart contempt feature, besides other tweakable settings. Komodo does lack learning, something that the free ShashChess, and a few other SF derivatives, will provide. ShashChess also comes with personalities, Tal being my favorite.

I prefer original approaches myself, and salute Andrew for not plugging a SF net into his engine. I was just hoping someone would post some interesting games that Ethereal 13 had won, regardless of opponent strength. I know Ethereal 12.75 and earlier had an active and enterprising style, even if not all-out spectacular, but NNUE has the potential to make an engine a little too solid, and play "not to lose".

[carldaman]

Actually, I don't think I'm seeing any Ethereal 13 NNUE wins in this thread, despite the considerable effort invested to first play and then post all these games.

Can anyone actually post some impressive Ethereal 13 wins, preferably a) wins against stronger opponents, or b) spectacular wins vs equal or weaker foes?

Similarly, can anyone produce any great moves by Ethereal 13 NNUE that stronger engines cannot find? Or perhaps some examples of original play?

I mean, when a strong commercial program is released, shouldn't there be some real expectations of the value that is being offered in exchange for the purchasing price?

By the way, I do understand and respect the fact that Andrew has put up a lot of time and effort to come up with an original product here, so the above questions should really apply to all commercial releases, not just his.

Fairly hard to produce something specuatlor over the board against: Stockfish, Stockfish forks, Stockfish clones, engines using Stockfish nets, engines using the Stockfish data, engines using the Stockfish training apparatus. Think most of those games fell under that umbrella, but I only scimmed the titles and don't recognize all the derivatives that pop up every fifteen seconds.

The selling point of Ethereal is never going to be that it beats SF and K. If not for NNUE, I would have passed K by now I believe, but regardless. The selling point is that is an engine disconnected from what Stockfish is doing. Its an alternative for extremely high elo gameplay, having its own way of doing things which leads to variations in play over the board.

Most seem happy to just package their engine with the copy pasted SF and an SF network. I did that to showcase how trivial it is and how its no feat ... took < 2 hrs to do it if I recall. You can watch that version beat up SF 12 classical like its Rybka, but you just end up with another SF, but its worse than the real product. I'll never try to be "Stockfish, but worse" in the way that FatFritz has done, and many more. :shrug:

</rant>

OK, I'll settle for any wins, even against lesser opponents.

Also, see my previous post. My advice is to look to include useful features or parameters in future releases, as they can be a very strong selling point for many people.