Opinion: The Chess Community Reaps What They Sow

[AndrewGrant]

Recently there has been a dramatic escalation in what I, and many like minded individuals, consider to be depraved and unfounded ways of viewing the world. The other day, a thread was created surrounding the Eman engine's author decision to cease distribution of the project, in order to not continue to violate the GPLv3 associated with the Stockfish project. To my surprise and absolute disgust, a handful of users went on to label Stockfish's authors and copyright holders as the bad guys, for seeking that their license be upheld. Going so far as to say Stockfish's authors have an unjust monopoly of power in the computer chess world.

Comments like these are of course ignorant -- fully devoid of any understanding of the GPLv3, the purpose of the it, the letter and spirit of it, and more generally copyleft approaches to licensing. It is an act of near sociopathic entitlement to feel that you have the right to do whatever you see fit with the Stockfish project, without adhering to the license attached to the project. You as an individual, or even as a Stockfish contributor, are not entitled to the fruits of the labor of the entire Stockfish team. Even Marco and Tord do not hold that right -- a choice they made, by putting their projects under the GPLv3. A noble set of choices which propelled Computer Chess into a new era.

We've reached a mindset where everything is about Stockfish. I make an active effort to contact and talk with authors who post their initial releases of their engines here, because when a day comes where no one new is joining, the day where the entire hobby dies is only around the corner. However, there exist users here that do the opposite of this. Upon my commercial release of Ethereal, I was blasted with comments scorning me for not using Stockfish networks. For not releasing all of my work publicly. For allowing Ethereal to be less than it could be, in order to be more original and effortful by not reusing a Stockfish NNUE file or implementation. I was derided in these very forums for going my own way.

So to me it is no surprise that everyday a higher percent of the total projects contain significant portions of Stockfish. Whether they are legal or illegal Stockfish clones, engines using the Stockfish NNUE implementation (legally or illegally), engines using Stockfish trained Network files (legal, always?), and so on. In a mixed form of zealotry and narcissism, users feel that everything should be Stockfish, and that everything should be open for them to use without any restrictions.

The existence of Fruit was a miracle. The existence of Stockfish is a miracle. The existence of Leela is a miracle. The existence of Fishtest and OpenBench and Cutechess and Python-Chess and so many other tools used everyday in this hobby is a blessing. Passionate people have built incredible tools and projects, and given them to the world free of charge. But most of those projects have a simple request: that you carry on their license. Its a trivial request. Its free ice cream, and all you have to do is say "Thanks" -- still too much for some.

This community lately deserves Robert Houdart, ChessBase, and all the other grifters. They deserve someone who comes in and swindles the masses. This was not always the case thankfully. Not long ago users of this forum held a firm line against those who violated the copyrights of others. I won't name specific names here, but some of the forums current users who have marked themselves as above the fray, above the drama, and independent, once took hard stances against engine developers who would blatantly rip off the copyright of others. There was even a time when the moderation of this forum took action -- banning developers of that nature.

I do not know exactly what changed. Perhaps the exposure of Houdini and others as Stockfish clones shocked people in a way from which they cannot recover. Perhaps the Fruit vs Rybka situation caused people so much fear over topics of copyright violation that they no longer are willing to engage with even the clearest of cases. Fruit vs Rybka is an unsettled matter -- I've seen arguments from people I respect on both sides --but there are no Fruit vs Rybka cases today. The only people to whom the modern cases are not clear, are those who are willfully ignorant or unwilling to put forth the effort to digest the situation.

When authors and developers are chastised for not reusing the technology and code of stronger projects -- When tournaments and rating lists reward those who stomp on the generous works of others by including infringing engines -- When trolls exist solely to justify and rationalize the ever increasing degrees of wrong doings -- I don't see how an outcome other than what we see today is possible. Most all have abandoned these forums. Technical discussion now exists in Discord servers and on Fishcooking. The knowledge and insights of our most talented are no longer archived here as CCC was from decades ago.

[smatovic]

My own conclusion as chess programmer -> go MIT

I see here a lot of new developers, young talents, on the ground who have an alternative interpretation of GPL, use others data for training -> nope, use others code for NNUE implementation -> nope, use others networks for own engine -> nope. Use others ideas -> yes, but you have to implement them in your own way, whatever that means. Maybe this is a matter of Zeitgeist, dunno, things are moving, so I am moving to MIT license to make clear what the spirit behind my code base is.

--
Srdja

[ChickenLogic]

People struggle with these two things concerning open source and the GPL license in particular:

1) Individuals are mostly insignificant. A project that builds on a great community will always produce the best solutions. It is extremely unlikely any individual will surpass Stockfish. People who like to feel special thus can only copy Stockfish (or any other open source project) and hide the software's origin (or downplay other's people work while praising their own work, like Albert Silver did). This was proven to be correct once more after noob stopped contributing his cores to fishtest. As of writing we have 238 machines with 2961 cores online which is more than we usually had before noob left.

2) "Inclusive meritocracy": any person, no matter what the public thinks about them, can and probably will have good ideas and can freely contribute and improve the program. Thus it is necessary for the community that the code always stays open source so the collective can progress.
People that violate this principle likely want more credit than they deserve. Opening up their "private fork" (like Eman) would result in other people seeing the code and probably improving it to the point where the original Eman code isn't at all like it used to be. This could hurt one's ego if one's the sensitive type that always needs reaffirmation.

Removing the authors file and putting your own name in a large project like Stockfish is simply pathetic and petty. Both Albert Silver and Khalid have done this. I don't think I have to elaborate any further.

We should encourage people to contribute to projects like Ethereal, Igel and Stockfish because they follow the essential principles of open source and only competition can bring computer chess further. Leela had a quite an impact on SF's development without even being tested on fishtest. Only by helping Ethereal or any other open source engine can Stockfish or Leela be forced to keep up their pace.
This also means being friendly and welcoming people that are new to coding/FOSS and recommending improvements so they can learn and grow.
Again, this is something you see all the time in the Stockfish discord and their github while you never see Khalid or Alber Silver doing this.

I'll leave you with this link: https://www.theopensourceway.org/the_op ... k-2.0.html

[BrendanJNorman]

My opinion is that you guys have made this place too political and turned off probably 90% of computer CHESS fans.

Should use separate forums for Engine Origins (all the Eman talk) and political/election infighting here.

This place is just a cesspool of 20-year bitter grudges and grievances and only minor chess content.

It's toxic.

Just my opinion, spare me the tears.

[ChickenLogic]

My opinion is that you guys have made this place too political and turned off probably 90% of computer CHESS fans.

Should use separate forums for Engine Origins (all the Eman talk) and political/election infighting here.

This place is just a cesspool of 20-year bitter grudges and grievances and only minor chess content.

It's toxic.

Just my opinion, spare me the tears.

I'm not at all surprised that a community, that can't even respect basic rights that the GPLv3 grants, isn't capable of actually discussion chess/computer chess. It's not a matter of politics - it's just a matter of respect and basic communication skills. I'm not sure if I should be sad or happy that the #memes channel in the Stockfish discord has more computer chess discussions than this forum. And they even manage to stay friendly. This forum is gatekeeping (such as IP blocking) really hard. It's time to leave talkchess. I've already asked for my account to be deleted.

[AdminX]

My opinion is that you guys have made this place too political and turned off probably 90% of computer CHESS fans.

Should use separate forums for Engine Origins (all the Eman talk) and political/election infighting here.

This place is just a cesspool of 20-year bitter grudges and grievances and only minor chess content.

It's toxic.

Just my opinion, spare me the tears.

I'm not at all surprised that a community, that can't even respect basic rights that the GPLv3 grants, isn't capable of actually discussion chess/computer chess. It's not a matter of politics - it's just a matter of respect and basic communication skills. I'm not sure if I should be sad or happy that the #memes channel in the Stockfish discord has more computer chess discussions than this forum. And they even manage to stay friendly. This forum is gatekeeping (such as IP blocking) really hard. It's time to leave talkchess. I've already asked for my account to be deleted.

I agree with both you and Brenden, and I do think some of it has been political by some here who have an hidden agenda. However you are correct when you say "a matter of respect and basic communication skills".

[mclane]

There is a reason we see no new Hiarcs and no new Shredder anymore but instead thousands of cloned Stockfish attempts.

[AdminX]

There is a reason we see no new Hiarcs and no new Shredder anymore but instead thousands of cloned Stockfish attempts.

Funny you should say that. I was wondering a few days ago would there be another Shredder of would NNUE put an end to the Shredder line. I very much hope this is not the end for Shredder.

[JohnWoe]

People struggle with these two things concerning open source and the GPL license in particular:

1) Individuals are mostly insignificant. A project that builds on a great community will always produce the best solutions. It is extremely unlikely any individual will surpass Stockfish. People who like to feel special thus can only copy Stockfish (or any other open source project) and hide the software's origin (or downplay other's people work while praising their own work, like Albert Silver did). This was proven to be correct once more after noob stopped contributing his cores to fishtest. As of writing we have 238 machines with 2961 cores online which is more than we usually had before noob left.

2) "Inclusive meritocracy": any person, no matter what the public thinks about them, can and probably will have good ideas and can freely contribute and improve the program. Thus it is necessary for the community that the code always stays open source so the collective can progress.
People that violate this principle likely want more credit than they deserve. Opening up their "private fork" (like Eman) would result in other people seeing the code and probably improving it to the point where the original Eman code isn't at all like it used to be. This could hurt one's ego if one's the sensitive type that always needs reaffirmation.

Removing the authors file and putting your own name in a large project like Stockfish is simply pathetic and petty. Both Albert Silver and Khalid have done this. I don't think I have to elaborate any further.

We should encourage people to contribute to projects like Ethereal, Igel and Stockfish because they follow the essential principles of open source and only competition can bring computer chess further. Leela had a quite an impact on SF's development without even being tested on fishtest. Only by helping Ethereal or any other open source engine can Stockfish or Leela be forced to keep up their pace.
This also means being friendly and welcoming people that are new to coding/FOSS and recommending improvements so they can learn and grow.
Again, this is something you see all the time in the Stockfish discord and their github while you never see Khalid or Alber Silver doing this.

I'll leave you with this link: https://www.theopensourceway.org/the_op ... k-2.0.html

How does it improve competition if everybody contributes to Stockfish?

The problem space is simply too massive for an individual to come up with code that equals Stockfish. Without significant copy-paste.
That's why we have the same program basically. I see no problem with Fire for example. It's as original as any other.

Crafty for example around 3,000 ELO while Hyatt worked on this project like 40 years professionally. This is where super originality leads you.

Of course the modern society only rewards winners and the others can go home. So here we are.

Shame that Martin left. He was the only one who bothered to read my code and give good tricks. QSearch depth trick made sense and improved ELO. HGM and Maksim has good skills too.

Otherwise I see just trolls and their BS. Reddit is just karma w***ing. My plan is to make Mayhem future proof and walk out.

[mclane]

There is a reason we see no new Hiarcs and no new Shredder anymore but instead thousands of cloned Stockfish attempts.

Funny you should say that. I was wondering a few days ago would there be another Shredder of would NNUE put an end to the Shredder line. I very much hope this is not the end for Shredder.

Computerchess is not about Elo anymore.

If your car drives 200 km/h it makes sense only for a few nuts to have a car that drives 300 km/h.
That why innovation in that area also ends sadly.
Why trying to make a car running 310 ?! Normal car users drive 120.
So all that ELO stuff is waste of energy.


Computerchess today is IMO about playing style and rebuilding the way human plays chess.