Draughts has not been solved, can a chess programmer solve it ?

[Guenther]

The whole thread was about 8*8 checkers vs. International draughts, which is 10*10 started by yourself and everyone can see this and everyone replied to this. Even the above quote of yourself still quotes Euwe about a 100 square board lol).
Suddenly changing the subject now to more exotic seldom variants several days later will not cure your nonsense.

It does NOT matter if it has passed 5 or 6 days, even 5 or 6 months, I let it go for that long to see if somebody caught the ridiculous statement that you posted here " Ouch, you know that half of the squares are unused in all checker/draughts and similar variants games, the rest is just background." Really not all checkers/draughts and similar variants games

Note: That is why I changed it from 10x10 international Draughts and included the Canadian and Dominican Republic 12x12 Draughts with 144 squares in which only 72 Dark Squares are used, because you included all checkers/draughts and similar variants games :roll:

So you still don't understand that the sentence you quoted from me above:

" Ouch, you know that half of the squares are unused in all checker/draughts and similar variants games, the rest is just background."

is universally true?
(and for the rest several people including me already pointed out your error in counting complexity by even unused squares
for checkers and international draughts)

You are lost in circles. Everything was already said, but your narcisstic ego cannot accept it.
This is my last post in this thread so you can use it now forever for your posting diarrhea (22 years void of logic).

[Chessqueen]

The whole thread was about 8*8 checkers vs. International draughts, which is 10*10 started by yourself and everyone can see this and everyone replied to this. Even the above quote of yourself still quotes Euwe about a 100 square board lol).
Suddenly changing the subject now to more exotic seldom variants several days later will not cure your nonsense.

It does NOT matter if it has passed 5 or 6 days, even 5 or 6 months, I let it go for that long to see if somebody caught the ridiculous statement that you posted here " Ouch, you know that half of the squares are unused in all checker/draughts and similar variants games, the rest is just background." Really not all checkers/draughts and similar variants games

Note: That is why I changed it from 10x10 international Draughts and included the Canadian and Dominican Republic 12x12 Draughts with 144 squares in which only 72 Dark Squares are used, because you included all checkers/draughts and similar variants games

So you still don't understand that the sentence you quoted from me above:

" Ouch, you know that half of the squares are unused in all checker/draughts and similar variants games, the rest is just background."

is universally true?
(and for the rest several people including me already pointed out your error in counting complexity by even unused squares
for checkers and international draughts)

You are lost in circles. Everything was already said, but your narcisstic ego cannot accept it.
This is my last post in this thread so you can use it now forever for your posting diarrhea (22 years void of logic).

You are the one lost in circle simply counting the playable squares of Draughts, but your NPD disorder is reflected by having little regard for those whose post here, and constantly accusing others of trolling. I am happy that you will never counter post me from now on. As i said before you are not an authority to say that Chess is more complex than Draughts, simply go into google and find out what Dr. Euwe stated about Draughts versus Chess. It is often thought that chess is harder than checkers. Nothing is less true. The very simplicity of the game makes draughts so difficult. A chess player must calculate various possibilities at once before he moves. Draughts players are forced to think ahead. We know from Ton Sijbrands that he thought forward 35 moves during a party. While his board was full of pieces, he came calculating to a position in which he had three stones and his opponent only two. Because it would finish in a draw, he decided to make a different move .

Is blind chess not more difficult than blind draughts? Players who have studied and played both games do not say no, because although the number of pieces in chess is higher, they have clear distinguishing marks which help memory, an element missing from draughts . To the question whether draughts is harder than chess or bridge master Jack de Haas once extensively responded:
"Checkers is at least as difficult as chess and the combinations in checkers, thanks to the compulsory capture and the capture of the majority of the pieces, are brighter and deeper than in chess.

Dr. Max Euwe once had a conversation in New York with a world checkers champion Dr. Marion Tinsley. That's checkers on a checkerboard - a slightly simpler form of our international draughts game (on a 100-square board). He confided in me: "If I want a quiet game with not too much effort, I will play chess. With checkers I must already be very careful at the third or fourth move that I do not do anything wrong, I have to calculate deeply, because one mistake can have fatal consequences. However, when I play chess, I can get away with making a less good move in the opening. I can correct the disadvantage later.

Conclusion: Draughts (100-square board) is harder than chess, because it forces the opponent to take ( compulsory ) when it is offered to you, now if Chess rule change in the future making mandatory to take when a piece if offered to you, it will become harder than GO.

GM Ivanchuck after playing Draughts for 8 years is only ranked 1089 in the World Expert level, Whereas, Ivanchuk reached Master after studying chess for 8 years ==>

[hgm]

All this is pretty obvious. Running 800m might be easier than running 43km, but that doesn't mean that winning the 800m at the olympics is easier than winning the marathon there. Fact is that International Draughts has a much smaller state space and a much smaller game tree than Chess. (And much larger such things than Checkers.) And that the rules are a lot simpler. But you don't play against the rules or the state space; you play against an opponent. Who derives the same advantages or disadvantages from the rules as you. The game is as difficult as your opponents are strong, and at the 800m they all run a lot faster.

My (reasonably uninformed) guess is that International Draught is so much more complex than Checkers that solving it is totally out of the question. How much effort is required to solve it is solely dependent on the game tree / state space, as opponents play no role in such an endeavor.

[Chessqueen]

All this is pretty obvious. Running 800m might be easier than running 43km, but that doesn't mean that winning the 800m at the olympics is easier than winning the marathon there. Fact is that International Draughts has a much smaller state space and a much smaller game tree than Chess. (And much larger such things than Checkers.) And that the rules are a lot simpler. But you don't play against the rules or the state space; you play against an opponent. Who derives the same advantages or disadvantages from the rules as you. The game is as difficult as your opponents are strong, and at the 800m they all run a lot faster.

My (reasonably uninformed) guess is that International Draught is so much more complex than Checkers that solving it is totally out of the question. How much effort is required to solve it is solely dependent on the game tree / state space, as opponents play no role in such an endeavor.

I Joined the Dominican Republic international Draughts and the Dominican Champion told me that they also created a new version of a compulsory Chess, where if they offer the opponent a piece it has to be taken and in the case that two pieces of chess become simultaneously available to be taken only the most valuable piece has to be taken. They created this version of compulsory Chess back in the last 10x10 international draughts championship of the DOM. REP. because one of the leading local players from the Dominican Republic was experimenting with it and introduced it to the rest. It is becoming rapidly famous in the Dominican Republic and according to an IM FIDE Chess player for the Dom.Rep., it is much more challenging because the opponent at any moment can for you to take a piece and your game if you are not very careful collapse very quickly, my distance uncle who live in the DOM. REP. is an avid 10x10 Draughts player in the Dominican Republic, only rated 2250 but has never travel internationally to compete. He is the one playing with light beige shirt and glasses the one that has a friend watching the game by his side.

[hgm]

An interesting Chess variant. (But it has zero relevance for the topic of this thread...) What is the winning condition here? Is it legal to expose the King to capture, and can one force it to sacrifice itself by offering it a protected piece? Or must all the moves be fully legal according to FIDE rules? Or is it like Draughts, where there is no royalty, and you lose by being stalemated.

[dangi12012]

All this is pretty obvious. Running 800m might be easier than running 43km, but that doesn't mean that winning the 800m at the olympics is easier than winning the marathon there. Fact is that International Draughts has a much smaller state space and a much smaller game tree than Chess. (And much larger such things than Checkers.) And that the rules are a lot simpler. But you don't play against the rules or the state space; you play against an opponent. Who derives the same advantages or disadvantages from the rules as you. The game is as difficult as your opponents are strong, and at the 800m they all run a lot faster.

My (reasonably uninformed) guess is that International Draught is so much more complex than Checkers that solving it is totally out of the question. How much effort is required to solve it is solely dependent on the game tree / state space, as opponents play no role in such an endeavor.

Exactly right. The game could be one piece and simple rules. It doesnt matter you could see 30 plies deep - but opponen too. So "game hardness" for humans stays the same.

[Chessqueen]

An interesting Chess variant. (But it has zero relevance for the topic of this thread...) What is the winning condition here? Is it legal to expose the King to capture, and can one force it to sacrifice itself by offering it a protected piece? Or must all the moves be fully legal according to FIDE rules? Or is it like Draughts, where there is no royalty, and you lose by being stalemated.

I just called my father in Spain who has my Uncle Telephone number in the Dominican Republic, and I spoke with him. He told me that all the FIDE rules apply, and they should be legal moves except that if the opponent force you to take you must take ( compulsory ), this makes it a little harder since most of the times you have to be very careful like in Draughts where if you think like standard chess where you do not have to take and chose a better move, you are committed to take and abandon any previous plan or tactical shots that you planned and be forced to play a forceful chess game which is much different than what we are used to.

[Chessqueen]

All this is pretty obvious. Running 800m might be easier than running 43km, but that doesn't mean that winning the 800m at the olympics is easier than winning the marathon there. Fact is that International Draughts has a much smaller state space and a much smaller game tree than Chess. (And much larger such things than Checkers.) And that the rules are a lot simpler. But you don't play against the rules or the state space; you play against an opponent. Who derives the same advantages or disadvantages from the rules as you. The game is as difficult as your opponents are strong, and at the 800m they all run a lot faster.

My (reasonably uninformed) guess is that International Draught is so much more complex than Checkers that solving it is totally out of the question. How much effort is required to solve it is solely dependent on the game tree / state space, as opponents play no role in such an endeavor.

Exactly right. The game could be one piece and simple rules. It doesn't matter you could see 30 plies deep - but opponent too. So "game hardness" for humans stays the same.

Unless you join the https://lidraughts.org/ and try it for yourself you will never know exactly how hard it is to get pass 1900 in Draughts even if you are rated above 2700 like GM Ivanchuk Vassily found out after playing for 8 years already. Ivanchuk average rating has been 1967 http://www.fmjd.org/?p=pcard&id=20097

[dangi12012]

All this is pretty obvious. Running 800m might be easier than running 43km, but that doesn't mean that winning the 800m at the olympics is easier than winning the marathon there. Fact is that International Draughts has a much smaller state space and a much smaller game tree than Chess. (And much larger such things than Checkers.) And that the rules are a lot simpler. But you don't play against the rules or the state space; you play against an opponent. Who derives the same advantages or disadvantages from the rules as you. The game is as difficult as your opponents are strong, and at the 800m they all run a lot faster.

My (reasonably uninformed) guess is that International Draught is so much more complex than Checkers that solving it is totally out of the question. How much effort is required to solve it is solely dependent on the game tree / state space, as opponents play no role in such an endeavor.

Exactly right. The game could be one piece and simple rules. It doesn't matter you could see 30 plies deep - but opponent too. So "game hardness" for humans stays the same.

Unless you join the https://lidraughts.org/ and try it for yourself you will never know exactly how hard it is to get pass 1900 in Draughts even if you are rated above 2700 like GM Ivanchuk Vassily found out after playing for 8 years already. Ivanchuk average rating has been 1967 http://www.fmjd.org/?p=pcard&id=20097

You are missing the point. The point is that "how computationally difficult the rules of the game are" and "how difficult it is to win a game against an opponent" are two disjoint questions that have no overlap.
When solving game X its important to ask the right questions to begin with.

[Chessqueen]

All this is pretty obvious. Running 800m might be easier than running 43km, but that doesn't mean that winning the 800m at the olympics is easier than winning the marathon there. Fact is that International Draughts has a much smaller state space and a much smaller game tree than Chess. (And much larger such things than Checkers.) And that the rules are a lot simpler. But you don't play against the rules or the state space; you play against an opponent. Who derives the same advantages or disadvantages from the rules as you. The game is as difficult as your opponents are strong, and at the 800m they all run a lot faster.

My (reasonably uninformed) guess is that International Draught is so much more complex than Checkers that solving it is totally out of the question. How much effort is required to solve it is solely dependent on the game tree / state space, as opponents play no role in such an endeavor.

Exactly right. The game could be one piece and simple rules. It doesn't matter you could see 30 plies deep - but opponent too. So "game hardness" for humans stays the same.

Unless you join the https://lidraughts.org/ and try it for yourself you will never know exactly how hard it is to get pass 1900 in Draughts even if you are rated above 2700 like GM Ivanchuk Vassily found out after playing for 8 years already. Ivanchuk average rating has been 1967 http://www.fmjd.org/?p=pcard&id=20097

You are missing the point. The point is that "how computationally difficult the rules of the game are" and "how difficult it is to win a game against an opponent" are two disjoint questions that have no overlap.
When solving game X its important to ask the right questions to begin with.

I do NOT believe that I need to change anything at all, and just because it seems easier to program a Draughts game then it is a chess game since there are fewer rules and the stones only move diagonally and take diagonally and even when promoted to King it move like a Bishop , still it does not make it easier than Chess. I did not miss the point, as you read most experts like Dr. Euwe agreed that Droughts is not easier than chess, therefore, it will take at least another 5 years to be solved, and even if all the engines that participated in the last computer international droughts tournament can beat the human Champion, it is still not solved yet, since none of those Draughts engines can play thousands of games and draw them all like Chinook with the much simpler form of 8x8 checkers. At one point you started to calculate or attempted to calculate and here is what you wrote.
" Naive math yields naive results.
Lets do the math for chess:
The 7-piece tablebase contains 423,836,835,667,331 unique legal positions in about 18 Terabytes.
18E12 * 8 Bit / 423,836,835,667,331 = 0.33Bits/Position."

But it will take some time to make a EGDB that will cover the 10x10 international draughts and much more with the 12x12