Freestyle Chess is Coming Home

[Ozymandias]

It says "Examples of Stalemate Wins (for White)" and that's just what it is. Nowhere does it say that those are "all theoretically possible examples from White point of view".

BTW, in one of the examples, black is a rook up, but it's stalemated, so it ends on the wrong side of things. You may like it or not, but it is and it will continue to be this way. Sorry about that.

[Uri Blass]

I do not play in the tournament but based on the examples it is also a win for black because black has more material and the opponent has only a king so it seems to me that it should be decided to be a draw unless the rules say that having more material is a win for the side with more material except stalemates.

Edit 2:I see based on the examples that a rook up for black with stalemate is considered to be a win for white but this is a different case because there is no side who has only a king.

[Eduard]

I don't like these rules. This position shows how bizarre it could turn out:

[fen]8/7p/8/8/8/8/5K1p/7k b - - 1 90[/fen]

According to the rules, white could force a stalemate here by forcing the black pawn to move. Really?

What happens if black doesn't move, but exceeds the time?

[Ozymandias]

I do not play in the tournament but based on the examples it is also a win for black because black has more material and the opponent has only a king so it seems to me that it should be decided to be a draw unless the rules say that having more material is a win for the side with more material except stalemates.

Edit 2:I see based on the examples that a rook up for black with stalemate is considered to be a win for white but this is a different case because there is no side who has only a king.

A pawn isn't considered "material" by these rules. If you're a paw up, it all about who gets stalemated. A stalemate is valid in any case, regardless of material imbalance.

[Uri Blass]

I do not play in the tournament but based on the examples it is also a win for black because black has more material and the opponent has only a king so it seems to me that it should be decided to be a draw unless the rules say that having more material is a win for the side with more material except stalemates.

Edit 2:I see based on the examples that a rook up for black with stalemate is considered to be a win for white but this is a different case because there is no side who has only a king.

A pawn isn't considered "material" by these rules. If you're a paw up, it all about who gets stalemated. A stalemate is valid in any case, regardless of material imbalance.

1)There is one example when it is a draw because black is going to capture white's pawn so people can understand that a pawn is considered material.

[fen]8/7k/8/2K5/7P/8/8/8 w - - 13 1 [/fen]

No valid material advantage and the reason is that black is going to capture the pawn and not that a pawn is not valid.


2)Not always there is a way to force stalemate in kpk for one side.

[fen]7K/5k2/7P/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 5 1 [/fen]

In a normal chess game there are 3 possible types of draws
a)1...Kg6 2.Kg8 Kxh6
b)1...Kf8 2.Kh7 Kf7 3.Kh8 Kf8 4.Kh7 Kf7 5.Kh8 with repetition.
c)1...Kg6 2.h7 Kf7 stalemate

If the sides know that stalemate is a win against the side to move then of course white is going to avoid 2.h7 and it is also a draw.

[Uri Blass]

rules by examples are not clear

It is not clear if the following is valid material advantage or not.
All the examples are when the weaker side has only a king so you can say no but people can say it is only examples and the intention was to define positions as win if it is a draw by chess rules and one side has material advantage.

[fen]8/7k/p1p1p1p1/P1P1P1P1/8/8/P7/4K3 w - - 13 1 [/fen]


In the following case that I composed it is also not clear if white is winning after Bxd2 Kxd2 because black has material that is not pawns.

[fen]8/8/8/b7/8/3K4/pp1Q4/rk6 b - - 13 1 [/fen]

It is also not clear if a draw by perpetual check when one side is a pawn up is a draw or a win for the side with the material advantage.

Rules should be defined by if then and not by examples and I see no definition of rules.

I understand the intention of
if the side to move is in stalemate then the side to move is losing else...
but I see no written rule like that and I see no clear rules for what you do after else.

You can say after else that if there is no possible way to force checkmate then if there is no forced way to win material then it is a win for the side with the material advantage and otherwise the game continue but there is no rule.

[Ozymandias]

There is one example when it is a draw because black is going to capture white's pawn so people can understand that a pawn is considered material.

[fen]8/7k/8/2K5/7P/8/8/8 w - - 13 1 [/fen]

No valid material advantage and the reason is that black is going to capture the pawn and not that a pawn is not valid.


2)Not always there is a way to force stalemate in kpk for one side.

[fen]7K/5k2/7P/8/8/8/8/8 b - - 5 1 [/fen]

In a normal chess game there are 3 possible types of draws
a)1...Kg6 2.Kg8 Kxh6
b)1...Kf8 2.Kh7 Kf7 3.Kh8 Kf8 4.Kh7 Kf7 5.Kh8 with repetition.
c)1...Kg6 2.h7 Kf7 stalemate

If the sides know that stalemate is a win against the side to move then of course white is going to avoid 2.h7 and it is also a draw.

That example is in the stalemate section, so "Black will capture White's pawn" indicates that there won't be any. That's how I read it.

Your example and explanations are correct. Except the "of course" part, as my game posted above shows.

BTW, these aren't "rules by examples". First came the rules, then some examples. Curiously enough, example 4, which is the only one I find misleading, hasn't been cited. The problem is that the rules were only mentioned in detail almost 7 years ago, so new players may be at a loss. A link was promised with updated rules but, to my recollection, hasn't been provided yet.

About the examples you give later:

1) No stalemate and no material advantage (KN or KB v K). The game may progress until the 50 move rule kicks in or it may be agreed a draw.
2) Stalemate, not unlike the example I mentioned earlier (from the IC page) where the stalemated side was a rook up.

[Eduard]

Black to move:
[fen]8/7p/8/8/8/8/5K1p/7k b - - 0 1[/fen]


I asked the TD about this position.

He answered: "As far as the ZÜ (Timed out) is concerned: Strictly speaking, Black should be able to claim a material win, because the final position reached counts".

I don't like the new freestyle rules anymore.

In this position, White gets a stalemate win, if Black move normally and continues to play. However, if Black refuses to move, Black can claim a material win.

White believed he had reached his goal and is looking forward to a stalemate win (Zugzwang Black), but then Black no move, and White is the stupid.

[Eduard]

If I have 20 minutes left on my watch, I'll get a glass of wine or champagne, and celebrate my time overrun hahaha.

[Ozymandias]

....