How to effectively utlize Stockfish's strength for one's chess development

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Rebel
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Re: How to effectively utlize Stockfish's strength for one's chess development

Post by Rebel »

KLc wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:34 pm
matejst wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:02 am You can find the Rebel neural net here: http://rebel13.nl/epoch-78x.nnue You should use it with Marvin 5.2, instead of Martin's original NN. It is much faster than Rebel 14, and has multiPV. I strongly recommend using multiPV for analysis -- even only two lines. The engine very often finds better moves. Be careful: this net over-evaluates initiative and attack! But for human play, and in dynamic openings, it's great.
Thanks for the link. It was impossible for me to find it on the website after you mentioned "Rebel/Benjamin net".
You need to download and install Marvin 5.2.0 and then the Benjamin 1.1 NN and load it into Marvin.

https://github.com/bmdanielsson/marvin-chess/releases
http://rebel13.nl/epoch-78x.nnue [Benjamin NN]
90% of coding is debugging, the other 10% is writing bugs.
KLc
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Re: How to effectively utlize Stockfish's strength for one's chess development

Post by KLc »

Yes, works. I just wasn't able to find the net by navigating your website. All good now.
purechess
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Re: How to effectively utlize Stockfish's strength for one's chess development

Post by purechess »

Rebel wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:15 pm
KLc wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:34 pm
matejst wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:02 am You can find the Rebel neural net here: http://rebel13.nl/epoch-78x.nnue You should use it with Marvin 5.2, instead of Martin's original NN. It is much faster than Rebel 14, and has multiPV. I strongly recommend using multiPV for analysis -- even only two lines. The engine very often finds better moves. Be careful: this net over-evaluates initiative and attack! But for human play, and in dynamic openings, it's great.
Thanks for the link. It was impossible for me to find it on the website after you mentioned "Rebel/Benjamin net".
You need to download and install Marvin 5.2.0 and then the Benjamin 1.1 NN and load it into Marvin.

https://github.com/bmdanielsson/marvin-chess/releases
http://rebel13.nl/epoch-78x.nnue [Benjamin NN]
You use Marvin for analysis? As a sparring partner it's a bit to strong and can't be weaken
bmp1974
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Re: How to effectively utlize Stockfish's strength for one's chess development

Post by bmp1974 »

matejst wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:02 am
bmp1974 wrote: Sun Jan 16, 2022 9:11 am Thanks 'matejst' for your valuable suggestions. I will use your recommended engines to seek more human moves.
You are welcome. You can find the Rebel neural net here: http://rebel13.nl/epoch-78x.nnue You should use it with Marvin 5.2, instead of Martin's original NN. It is much faster than Rebel 14, and has multiPV. I strongly recommend using multiPV for analysis -- even only two lines. The engine very often finds better moves. Be careful: this net over-evaluates initiative and attack! But for human play, and in dynamic openings, it's great.

I will share some of my insights about training [without help, by yourself] in the hope of someone finding it useful. In my experience, the most important thing is to work on tactical awareness. The things I do every day is to use Lucas Chess and the module "Learn tactics by repetition", or any other module (mate in 2, 3, mates in GM games, etc.). It helps tremendously. In the Serbian third league I faced players rated from 2000-2300 (25 years ago!) and at this level tactical awareness is still one of the two most important things. Playing blindfold is also a key exercise to improve calculation and awareness. There is also a module for this in Lucas Chess.

The second thing is to work on your technique. Two aspects are important: the endings and the middle games arising from your openings. In both case, using an engine is beneficial: analyzing, playing sequences of moves, training against an engine. It is very important to try all the ideas one has in a certain position to see why it is not good. _Learning what's wrong is as important as learning what's right._

The third thing are the openings. I recommend using systems that one can remember. If you play the English attack in the Najdorf, play it against the Classical variation, the Taimanov, etc. Be2 in the Sicilian is a great move, and similar moves can be used in the Pirc, against the Modern etc. The fianchetto is much more dangerous than it is usually thought, especially at lower levels. So many players lose their cool when you start playing f4, g4, g5.

Just looking at the lines given by an engine, trying to visualize them and understand them has a lot to offer. First, one learns how to chose candidate moves: I improved my understanding when I noticed that the first moves engines were considering were moves that attacked something. In my youth I learnt to defend, but I had problems not losing the initiative. It helps also not making blunders.

Don't lose your time playing blitz and rapid! In my experience, without one hour per game, you just wasted your time. The key is to develop the habits of methodically calculating variations until you simply "see" them.
Once again thank you. Its highly valuable source.
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Rebel
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Re: How to effectively utlize Stockfish's strength for one's chess development

Post by Rebel »

purechess wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:22 pm
Rebel wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:15 pm
KLc wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:34 pm
matejst wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:02 am You can find the Rebel neural net here: http://rebel13.nl/epoch-78x.nnue You should use it with Marvin 5.2, instead of Martin's original NN. It is much faster than Rebel 14, and has multiPV. I strongly recommend using multiPV for analysis -- even only two lines. The engine very often finds better moves. Be careful: this net over-evaluates initiative and attack! But for human play, and in dynamic openings, it's great.
Thanks for the link. It was impossible for me to find it on the website after you mentioned "Rebel/Benjamin net".
You need to download and install Marvin 5.2.0 and then the Benjamin 1.1 NN and load it into Marvin.

https://github.com/bmdanielsson/marvin-chess/releases
http://rebel13.nl/epoch-78x.nnue [Benjamin NN]
You use Marvin for analysis? As a sparring partner it's a bit to strong and can't be weaken
The nets just happen to be compatible, the Marvin search is of course a lot stronger than Fruit, hence majest gave this advice.
90% of coding is debugging, the other 10% is writing bugs.
matejst
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Re: How to effectively utlize Stockfish's strength for one's chess development

Post by matejst »

purechess wrote: Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:22 pm You use Marvin for analysis? As a sparring partner it's a bit to strong and can't be weaken
No, for sparring I usually use the Maia engines in Lucas chess. Find the one that is not too weak and start from there. Maia is tactically weak but positionally way above a player rated 2000, so chose complicated positions if you want to win, or simple positions when you want to improve your technique. Another solution is too try Zahak 9. It could be even better than Maia.

I play sequences of about ten moves against a strong engine from time to time. Since I always miss some of its moves, it helps fighting against negative emotions, frustrations, and helps refocus. I play only middlegames, mostly technical positions, but still, it is painful most of time. A better solution is probably to play against Maia 1700-1900, at least there is a solid chance of winning a won position.

Engines, in general are useful for two things: one, develop the ability to calculate in sharp positions; two: by exploring a position to learn what are the best plans of play and what the true nature of the position is. While learning calculation is relatively straightforward (exercise, exercise, exercise), learning how to play some positions is a daunting task. It is sometimes paradoxically difficult -- e.g. I have been playing for years the French Defense as black, but I still have problems playing it as white. I pray for my opponent to choose 3... c5 in the Tarrasch, and avoid typical French structures that I adore playing as black. Recently I switched from the exchange var. in the Caro-Kann to the advanced variation, and I was completely lost until I read an old Karpov's book about it. I think it is extremely important to discover what's wrong in a position -- and NN engines are very good at refuting wrong moves and bad plans.

Finally, I found that 30-40 mn + 30s is enough for me to play some quality chess and calculate extensively in the few critical positions when deep calculation is unavoidable.
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Re: How to effectively utlize Stockfish's strength for one's chess development

Post by amanjpro »

Thanks to this thread I downloaded Lucas Chess, and it is a very nice program!

My current method of using chess engines to improve is:

- Play against Zahak's skill levels, I have found that it is easy to gain advantage, but hard to convert at least up to level 4 (I cannot graduate from this level yet :D).
- After playing on LiChess (I play 15+10, which is considered rapid but thanks to the increment it doesn't feel like one), I have found that most of who I have been paired with on Lichess for classical time control have been very weak to enjoy the game.
- After the game, I analyze+annotate the game myself. Then use Zahak to annotate and find my mistakes (both during the game and analysis)
- I also use Zahak to analyze+play GM games and try to understand the motives behind the moves.

Here Zahak can be replace with any other engine that supports skill levels + multi-pv, but I chose to use it as it encourages me to practice more ;)
matejst
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Re: How to effectively utlize Stockfish's strength for one's chess development

Post by matejst »

Amanj,

Try to discover not what's good in a position, but what's bad. Test your ideas -- especially the bad ones! When you don't have a coach, the best way to learn what's good in a position is to discover which moves are bad, and it's often easy to figure why they are bad. Analyzing old games, or games when one player is much better than the other, often offers more than analyzing game at the top level.

In combination with a few good books, with tactical training [the most important thing at the beginning!], and a few good repertoire books (or bases, or videos), it should be enough to achieve the level of 2000 Elos.

Zahak in multiPV mode is all that you need in terms of engine -- when I tested it, Zahak reminded me of Wasp -- and one can only regret that you stopped developing it, since you have now more experience with levels, and with using an engine for training [I also think that in terms of training tool, a slower Zahak with a bigger net would be a bit more useful. It would be quite an interesting project. BTW, sometimes Zahak prunes really too much and falls for tactical tricks.]
amanjpro
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Re: How to effectively utlize Stockfish's strength for one's chess development

Post by amanjpro »

matejst wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:29 am Amanj,

Try to discover not what's good in a position, but what's bad. Test your ideas -- especially the bad ones! When you don't have a coach, the best way to learn what's good in a position is to discover which moves are bad, and it's often easy to figure why they are bad. Analyzing old games, or games when one player is much better than the other, often offers more than analyzing game at the top level.

In combination with a few good books, with tactical training [the most important thing at the beginning!], and a few good repertoire books (or bases, or videos), it should be enough to achieve the level of 2000 Elos.

Zahak in multiPV mode is all that you need in terms of engine -- when I tested it, Zahak reminded me of Wasp -- and one can only regret that you stopped developing it, since you have now more experience with levels, and with using an engine for training [I also think that in terms of training tool, a slower Zahak with a bigger net would be a bit more useful. It would be quite an interesting project. BTW, sometimes Zahak prunes really too much and falls for tactical tricks.]
I have noticed that Zahak has issues with King safety. Something that even in my classical eval I always had issues with. I believe most of the tactical blindnesses come from this angle. Maybe adding some search-extensions here and there might help.
As for the bigger net, I need to change the arch dramatically to make it bigger, which requires a lot of processing power that I don't have :(

As for analyzing, I do actually try to see what is not working, I often challenge the engine/book or whatever to see why this thing doesn't work, but most of the time I feel stupid fast :D
I am currently working on the mammoth book, it has a good annotation (albeit sometimes wrong), but helps a lot :)
matejst
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Re: How to effectively utlize Stockfish's strength for one's chess development

Post by matejst »

amanjpro wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:58 am
I have noticed that Zahak has issues with King safety. Something that even in my classical eval I always had issues with. I believe most of the tactical blindnesses come from this angle. Maybe adding some search-extensions here and there might help.
As for the bigger net, I need to change the arch dramatically to make it bigger, which requires a lot of processing power that I don't have :(

As for analyzing, I do actually try to see what is not working, I often challenge the engine/book or whatever to see why this thing doesn't work, but most of the time I feel stupid fast :D
I am currently working on the mammoth book, it has a good annotation (albeit sometimes wrong), but helps a lot :)
"Feeling stupid fast" is the point. For me, it was the best way to understand the character, the nuances of a position. It is frustrating -- not at times, but always -- but one should spend more time on checking what he sees and understanding why it is bad or good, than following immediately what engines propose.

About a repertoire: try to chose variations that you can remember, systems that you understand. In the Pirc, I play a system where I know that when black plays c6 I play a4, when he moves Nf6 I play h3... It is easy to remember. Also, although many opening variations don't give advantage, they give you an easy game: not all equal positions are equal. A mammoth book would be great -- for all of us, but not for you. Limit the time you spend on learning variations, maximize the time you spend analyzing the resulting middlegames.

You already do an excellent exercise: winning a won position. It is much more difficult than we think, and when you hear a GM say "black is lost" or "white is completely busted" -- it means something only to them.