Andscacs 0.1 with NN file from Coiled ...

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi there,

Currently I'm trying out Andscacs 0.1 NN (a short time available via TalkChess message).
Rename and using the nn file from engine Coiled.

Seems to be very strong!

Best
Frank

[Guenther]

Hi there,

Currently I'm trying out Andscacs 0.1 NN (a short time available via TalkChess message).
Rename and using the nn file from engine Coiled.

Seems to be very strong!

Best
Frank

There is no nn file from Coiled it is just using older nns from Stockfish since version 0.7.

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hello Günther,

OK, I wonder ...

If Coiled is playing my FCP Tourney series I should add Andscacs 0.1 with the NN file Coiled used.
Maybe I should add the Andscacs 0.1 NN version (without NN file) in the collection of Andscacs versions, available on my site?

Best
Frank

[Guenther]

Hello Günther,

OK, I wonder ...

If Coiled is playing my FCP Tourney series I should add Andscacs 0.1 with the NN file Coiled used.
Maybe I should add the Andscacs 0.1 NN version (without NN file) in the collection of Andscacs versions, available on my site?

Best
Frank

Well, the nn file for Andscacs also is just an old Stockfish nn file, it was just an experiment.
That's why it was removed later. It's all the same, as with some Tornado versions and Mayhem and ... whatever.
Even Andrew from Ethereal did it once just to show how easy it would be and that it is no acchievement
and nothing, which should be praised by the community.
(and especially not in closed source programs)

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Günther,

opinions about it are different.

How many work John Stanback invested in his own NN file?
Over 18 months he is working very hard on it.

Others using Stockfish NN files.
Different programmers are thinking: It's boring to create own NN files if the work is done.

I like the way John go or the Ethereal (you are speaking from Andrew) go, others go.

All isn't esay!

Which peoples from Stockfish team working on NN files?
In special for Stockfish and why for Stockfish only?

I am just mate ...
Better is to give engines using "Stockfish" NN an other name!

Example:
Andscacs 0.1 NNsf (sf for Stockfish).
Coiled 1.1 NNsf
Gogobello 3.0 NNsf

But here I need helps!
Not sure which of the engines I have in my list are using NN files by "Stockfish".

BTW:
It's possible for you to compile a new Bit-Genie for my next "run-3".
9.19 have problems with endgames (often not set mate, games ended with a draw).

Best
Frank

[Frank Quisinsky]

No idea what I should do ...
Many engines for a good test needed and I have to accept all the different opinions by programmers.

The deal is:
Everyone is playing against each other!

So I am thinking, if people not liked different of the available engines ...
Very easy ...

Delete the engines from the database and public a new rating list on an other site or on the personal system.
That's easy, I have no problems with it.

Best
Frank

[Peter Berger]

I wonder why users don’t just pit various Stockfish versions against each other. Maybe because watching the games wouldn’t be fun? Could be the case, but who knows? I don’t know of anyone who ever tried seriously.
The idea of pitting different programs against each others probably just feels like more fun out of principle, kind of like having some human grandmasters play each other at your home.
Then some programmer tells you: this other program has stolen from someone else and isn’t really original. This feels like doping, unfair and not fun.
But you can’t judge for yourself, as you lack the knowledge.
So you maybe wait for some consensus to not waste your time or even worse: do something that is unethical. But you lack the knowledge for good own judgement. Common understanding seems to be that different programs who use NNUE and use the games Stockfish used will come up with a very similar evaluation and kind of become some Stockfish version themselves. How would you know if this is true? You can’t unless you develop a sufficiently deep understanding yourself – which is impossible for an ordinary earthling.
Still you’d like to do meaningful things of course. So you do something and make some judgement. And of course it is still possible to discuss these things with others.

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Peter,

good posting, thank you!
Very good posting ...

Only ...
For an example: Coiled 1.1 NNsf will be never a SF (if I am looking in stats of the engine with "SF" nn file).
The playing style is definitiv an other.

We are in the lucky situation that engines produced different playing styles.
Like that a lot!

I am not a policemen!
Hate that in times I made for different fora the administration.
Lost time and nerves.

Thinking all the time that we have to life with all the different opinions.
To "acceppt" is a big problem for many people like to set postings in fora.

I know that my own opinion was / is often wrong.
For different questions I am 50%-50% or mate, helpless.

Example:
I feel confident to hold strong sources secret (60%).
Can see advantages for open sources (40%).

Tactic and strategy!
The better strategy is to hold the sources closed (long time view).
The better tactic is to make the sources available (short time view).

Think so ... (example only).

Best
Frank

[Guenther]

...
So you maybe wait for some consensus to not waste your time or even worse: do something that is unethical. But you lack the knowledge for good own judgement. Common understanding seems to be that different programs who use NNUE and use the games Stockfish used will come up with a very similar evaluation and kind of become some Stockfish version themselves. How would you know if this is true? You can’t unless you develop a sufficiently deep understanding yourself – which is impossible for an ordinary earthling.
Still you’d like to do meaningful things of course. So you do something and make some judgement. And of course it is still possible to discuss these things with others. 😉

You talk about something different than what Frank started with this thread. Currently we are talking about simply (ab)using a plain SF net...
(including all SF nnue code and all SF eval and all training efforts by just plugin' a dll)
It seems you are even more confused than Frank? Even CCRL has found an opinion here,which I can support BTW.
What you think is 'common understanding' is completely wrong. Probably you don't know that there are completely different NN(UE)
styles and implementations, so Connors' (Seer developer) words again fell on deaf ears.

Read Connors' posts in this thread may be that helps:
forum3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=79407&p=921701#p921674

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Günther,

Again, interesting for me is:
Which people are working on SF net files?

The great power of work should be available for others (if others have interest on it).
To read again and again ... under the flag of Stockfish ... isn't the general intention from open sources.

What I have in my brain is to solve the situation around NN files very easy.
The situation with the Andscacs programmer in the past was not helpful, not forgotten (main reason for my thread).
I have no interest to lose programmers!

I understand Peter, can be uncommented in detail.
Nothing is confused!

Best
Frank