Hydra vs. Todays Top

[AdminX]

Would love to see a match with any of todays top engines (Dragon, LC0, or Stockfish) versus Hydra. Do you think it will ever come out and play again? The 2005 version was strong, wonder what a current version would do.

[Uri Blass]

Do not know much about the 2005 version but the 2004 version was not strong.
I will be surprised if hydra 2005 does not lose against stockfish of today.

[pgn][Event "Corr. Chess Match"]
[Site "Abu Dhabi/Berlin"]
[Date "2004.09.16"]
[EventDate "2004.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Arno Nickel"]
[Black "Hydra (Computer)"]
[ECO "B48"]
[WhiteElo "2586"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "85"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be3 a6
7. Qd2 Nf6 8. O-O-O Bb4 9. f3 Ne5 10. Nb3 b5 11. Qe1 Be7
12. f4 Nc4 13. e5 Ng4 14. Bd4 O-O 15. Bd3 Bb7 16. Qe2 Nh6
17. Nd2 d5 18. g4 Rac8 19. Rhg1 b4 20. Ncb1 a5 21. Nf3 a4
22. f5 Bc5 23. Qf2 a3 24. bxa3 Bxd4 25. Qxd4 bxa3 26. f6 Ba6
27. Bxc4 Qxc4 28. Qxc4 Bxc4 29. Nd4 Ra8 30. Rg3 Bxa2 31. Nxa3
Rfb8 32. h3 Rb7 33. Rdd3 gxf6 34. exf6 Rb6 35. Rc3 Kh8 36. Rc6
Rb4 37. Nab5 e5 38. Nd6 exd4 39. Ra3 Rb1+ 40. Kd2 Rab8
41. Rxa2 Rf1 42. Rb6 Rg8 43. g5 1-0

[Event "Corr. Chess Match"]
[Site "Abu Dhabi/Berlin"]
[Date "2004.09.16"]
[EventDate "2004.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Hydra (Computer)"]
[Black "Arno Nickel"]
[ECO "C07"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "2586"]
[PlyCount "108"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. Ngf3 cxd4 6. Bc4
Qd6 7. O-O Nf6 8. Nb3 Nc6 9. Nbxd4 Nxd4 10. Nxd4 a6 11. Re1
Qc7 12. Qe2 Bc5 13. c3 h6 14. Bd3 Bd7 15. Be3 Bd6 16. g3 O-O
17. Qd2 Ng4 18. Rad1 Rfe8 19. Nb3 Nxe3 20. Qxe3 Rad8 21. Qe4
g6 22. Bf1 Bc6 23. Qe3 Kh7 24. Bg2 e5 25. Bxc6 Qxc6 26. Qe4
Qxe4 27. Rxe4 Bc7 28. Ree1 b6 29. Na1 Kg7 30. Nc2 Rxd1
31. Rxd1 Rd8 32. Rxd8 Bxd8 33. Nb4 a5 34. Nd5 f5 35. c4 Kf7
36. a4 Ke6 37. b3 g5 38. h3 h5 39. Kf1 g4 40. h4 f4 41. Ke2
Kf5 42. Kf1 Ke4 43. Ke2 fxg3 44. fxg3 Kd4 45. Kd2 e4 46. Ke2
e3 47. Ke1 Kd3 48. Kd1 e2+ 49. Ke1 Kc2 50. Kxe2 Kxb3 51. Kd3
Kxa4 52. Kc2 Bxh4 53. gxh4 g3 54. Nf4 Kb4 0-1[/pgn]

[AdminX]

Do not know much about the 2005 version but the 2004 version was not strong.
I will be surprised if hydra 2005 does not lose against stockfish of today.

[pgn][Event "Corr. Chess Match"]
[Site "Abu Dhabi/Berlin"]
[Date "2004.09.16"]
[EventDate "2004.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Arno Nickel"]
[Black "Hydra (Computer)"]
[ECO "B48"]
[WhiteElo "2586"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "85"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nc6 5. Nc3 Qc7 6. Be3 a6
7. Qd2 Nf6 8. O-O-O Bb4 9. f3 Ne5 10. Nb3 b5 11. Qe1 Be7
12. f4 Nc4 13. e5 Ng4 14. Bd4 O-O 15. Bd3 Bb7 16. Qe2 Nh6
17. Nd2 d5 18. g4 Rac8 19. Rhg1 b4 20. Ncb1 a5 21. Nf3 a4
22. f5 Bc5 23. Qf2 a3 24. bxa3 Bxd4 25. Qxd4 bxa3 26. f6 Ba6
27. Bxc4 Qxc4 28. Qxc4 Bxc4 29. Nd4 Ra8 30. Rg3 Bxa2 31. Nxa3
Rfb8 32. h3 Rb7 33. Rdd3 gxf6 34. exf6 Rb6 35. Rc3 Kh8 36. Rc6
Rb4 37. Nab5 e5 38. Nd6 exd4 39. Ra3 Rb1+ 40. Kd2 Rab8
41. Rxa2 Rf1 42. Rb6 Rg8 43. g5 1-0

[Event "Corr. Chess Match"]
[Site "Abu Dhabi/Berlin"]
[Date "2004.09.16"]
[EventDate "2004.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[Result "0-1"]
[White "Hydra (Computer)"]
[Black "Arno Nickel"]
[ECO "C07"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "2586"]
[PlyCount "108"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. exd5 Qxd5 5. Ngf3 cxd4 6. Bc4
Qd6 7. O-O Nf6 8. Nb3 Nc6 9. Nbxd4 Nxd4 10. Nxd4 a6 11. Re1
Qc7 12. Qe2 Bc5 13. c3 h6 14. Bd3 Bd7 15. Be3 Bd6 16. g3 O-O
17. Qd2 Ng4 18. Rad1 Rfe8 19. Nb3 Nxe3 20. Qxe3 Rad8 21. Qe4
g6 22. Bf1 Bc6 23. Qe3 Kh7 24. Bg2 e5 25. Bxc6 Qxc6 26. Qe4
Qxe4 27. Rxe4 Bc7 28. Ree1 b6 29. Na1 Kg7 30. Nc2 Rxd1
31. Rxd1 Rd8 32. Rxd8 Bxd8 33. Nb4 a5 34. Nd5 f5 35. c4 Kf7
36. a4 Ke6 37. b3 g5 38. h3 h5 39. Kf1 g4 40. h4 f4 41. Ke2
Kf5 42. Kf1 Ke4 43. Ke2 fxg3 44. fxg3 Kd4 45. Kd2 e4 46. Ke2
e3 47. Ke1 Kd3 48. Kd1 e2+ 49. Ke1 Kc2 50. Kxe2 Kxb3 51. Kd3
Kxa4 52. Kc2 Bxh4 53. gxh4 g3 54. Nf4 Kb4 0-1[/pgn]

The 2005 version swiped the floor with GM Michael Adams, GM Nickel had way more time in his game. Still I wonder what a current version could do. At last the world may never know. All we have was the match with Shredder in 2004 as far as engine go.

[Vinvin]

Hydra was around 3000-3100 Elo.
Now Stockfish on a 8-16 cores CPU is around 3500 Elo.
There will be no match

[AdminX]

Hydra was around 3000-3100 Elo.
Now Stockfish on a 8-16 cores CPU is around 3500 Elo.
There will be no match

Sure only if we are talking about it being in stasis, but if he has found or could find software improvements, who knows. Clearly hardware has improved since then.

[Uri Blass]

hardware is not important today.
It was important in the past but today better hardware gives almost nothing.
Stockfish vs stockfish at long time control is a draw even if one side use 10 times faster hardware.

Hydra blundered by 41.Ke2
[fen]3b4/8/1p2k3/p2Np2p/P1P2ppP/1P4P1/5P2/5K2 w - - 0 41 [/fen]

Stockfish says that 41.gxf4 is a draw when 41.Ke2 is losing when the simplest way is 41...f3+

41...Kf5 that is the human choice is only winning.

[Werewolf]

Would love to see a match with any of todays top engines (Dragon, LC0, or Stockfish) versus Hydra. Do you think it will ever come out and play again? The 2005 version was strong, wonder what a current version would do.

I was there during the Hydra - Adams match. I spoke to Chrilly about Hydra and had emailed him a few times beforehand. He very kindly let me test it on my tactical testsuite. I have numerous positions where Hydra had a go. It was much stronger than anything at the time.

Immediately after the match with Adams, Chrilly told me privately he thought Hydra was 3100 elo and that no human stood a chance.
Let's assume he's correct about the elo: Stockfish today kills it.

Tactically as well, SF kills it. But what you want to know is what would happen if we used modern FPGA cards. Unfortunately, I think we have our answer with SF vs SF at 10:1 time ratio...

[Cardoso]

First iterations of Hydra's FPGAs made only a 2 ply search in hardware but later they could do 4 plies plus quiescence in hardware.
What could be interesting is making Stockfish run in FPGAs programmed not only to do a 4+ply hardware search but also NNUE computations. But you would be limited by the number of FPGAs, it seems more economical just to have a bunch x64 cpus working on parallel. More threads and cheaper. At least for home use.

[lkaufman]

Would love to see a match with any of todays top engines (Dragon, LC0, or Stockfish) versus Hydra. Do you think it will ever come out and play again? The 2005 version was strong, wonder what a current version would do.

I recall that around 2007 Hydra was still playing in some online events or games (I forget details), and the conclusion was that somewhere around that time Rybka passed Hydra in strength. Now Stockfish or Dragon can easily give pawn (f7) and two move odds to Rybka from 2007 (especially on modern hardware vs 2007 hardware), so draw your own conclusion from this.

[Ovyron]

I recall that around 2007 Hydra was still playing in some online events or games (I forget details), and the conclusion was that somewhere around that time Rybka passed Hydra in strength.

Yes.

Then years later history repeat itself as the Rybka Cluster appeared, and then the conclusion was that somewhere later Houdini (in regular hardware) passed the Rybka Cluster in strength.