Top engines with or without EGTB

[Chessqueen]

The EGTB experiment, I just started 1000 games Dragon 2.6.2 NoEGTB vs Dragon 2.6.1 (6 pieces EGTB). This will tell us the truth about the impact of using EGTB or Not. I believe there will be not to much difference in rating with the exception that Dragon(6pieces EGTB) will announce the WIn Draw or Lost much faster. Komodo Dragon or Stockfish without using any EGTB up to 6 Pieces can play as perfect as by using it, except certain engines like Rubiches and many other that are above 3440 that do NOT have good Endgame knowledge like in this 6 pieces endgame.

Caissa has more endgame chess knowledges than most engines over 3440, here Rubichess rated 3445 without using 6 pieces EGTB took the Bh3!. it should had played g3 which is the winning move and to ignore the Bait Bh3! from Caissa thinking that it was winning until proven wrong by tricky Caissa

[pgn][Event "Endgame Knowledge"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2022.07.11"]
[Round "*"]
[White "RubiChess-20220223_x86-64-avx2"]
[Black "Caissa-BMI2"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "2000"]
[Time "18:46:26"]
[WhiteElo "2000"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/8/8/5bk1/8/5B2/6PP/5K2 b - - 0 18"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "611"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

18. ... Bh3 19. gxh3 Kf4 20. Kf2 Ke5 21. Kg3 Kf6 22. Kg4 Kg7 23. Kg5 Kh7
24. Kh4 Kh8 25. Bc6 Kh7 26. Kg5 Kg7 27. Bb5 Kg8 28. h4 Kh7 29. Bd3+ Kg7 30.
h5 Kf7 31. Bc4+ Kg7 32. Be2 Kh8 33. Bg4 Kg8 34. Kh6 Kh8 35. Bf3 Kg8 36.
Bd5+ Kh8 37. Bf3 Kg8 38. Bg4 Kh8 39. Bd1 Kg8 40. Kg6 Kh8 41. Kf7 Kh7 42. h6
Kh8 43. Be2 Kh7 44. Bf1 Kh8 45. Kf6 Kg8 46. Bg2 Kh8 47. Bf1 Kg8 48. Ke7 Kh7
49. Kf7 Kh8 50. Bb5 Kh7 51. Ba6 Kh8 52. Kf6 Kh7 53. Bd3+ Kg8 54. h4 Kh8 55.
Ke7 Kg8 56. Ke6 Kh8 57. Bc2 Kg8 58. Kd7 Kh8 59. Bf5 Kg8 60. Ke8 Kh8 61. Bg6
Kg8 62. Be4 Kh8 63. Bc2 Kg8 64. Be4 Kh8 65. Kd7 Kg8 66. Bc2 Kh8 67. Ke7 Kg8
68. Ke6 Kh8 69. Bf5 Kg8 70. Ke7 Kh8 71. Kd6 Kg8 72. Ke6 Kh8 73. Bd3 Kg8 74.
Be4 Kh8 75. Bf5 Kg8 76. Bd3 Kh8 77. h5 Kg8 78. Be2 Kh7 79. Kf7 Kh8 80. Bb5
Kh7 81. Bd3+ Kh8 82. Bc4 Kh7 83. Bd3+ Kh8 84. Ke7 Kg8 85. Bf5 Kh8 86. Ke6
Kg8 87. Kf6 Kh8 88. Bb1 Kg8 89. Bd3 Kh8 90. Ke6 Kg8 91. Be2 Kh7 92. Kf7 Kh8
93. Bf3 Kh7 94. Be4+ Kh8 95. Bc6 Kh7 96. Be8 Kh8 97. Bd7 Kh7 98. Bf5+ Kh8
99. Kg6 Kg8 100. Bd3 Kh8 101. Bb5 Kg8 102. Bd3 Kh8 103. Be4 Kg8 104. Bf3
Kh8 105. Bc6 Kg8 106. Bd7 Kh8 107. Bf5 Kg8 108. Kf6 Kh8 109. Bg6 Kg8 110.
Be4 Kh8 111. Kg6 Kg8 112. Bf5 Kh8 113. Bd3 Kg8 114. Bf5 Kh8 115. Bd3 Kg8
116. Kf6 Kh8 117. Bf5 Kg8 118. Bg6 Kh8 119. Be4 Kg8 120. Kg6 Kh8 121. Bc6
Kg8 122. Bd7 Kh8 123. Kf7 Kh7 124. Bf5+ Kh8 125. Ke6 Kg8 126. h7+ Kh8 127.
Kd5 Kg7 128. Ke6 Kh8 129. Ke5 Kg7 130. Be4 Kh8 131. Kd6 Kg7 132. Bf5 Kh8
133. Kd5 Kg7 134. Kd4 Kh8 135. Bb1 Kg7 136. Bf5 Kh8 137. Kc5 Kg7 138. Kd5
Kh8 139. Ke4 Kg7 140. Kd3 Kh8 141. Bg6 Kg7 142. Ke4 Kh8 143. Bf5 Kg7 144.
Kd3 Kh8 145. Be4 Kg7 146. Kd4 Kh8 147. Bg6 Kg7 148. Kd5 Kh8 149. Bd3 Kg7
150. Ke6 Kh8 151. Bg6 Kg7 152. Ke5 Kh8 153. Bf5 Kg7 154. Bg6 Kh8 155. Kd6
Kg7 156. Kc6 Kh8 157. Be4 Kg7 158. Kd5 Kh8 159. Bd3 Kg7 160. Bf5 Kh8 161.
Kd6 Kg7 162. Bg6 Kh8 163. Be4 Kg7 164. Kd5 Kh8 165. Ke5 Kg7 166. Kd4 Kh8
167. Kd5 Kg7 168. Ke5 Kh8 169. Bg6 Kg7 170. Kf5 Kh8 171. Kg5 Kg7 172. Be4
Kh8 173. Bf5 Kg7 174. h8=R Kxh8 175. Kg6 Kg8 176. Bc8 Kh8 177. Bd7 Kg8 178.
Kg5 Kh8 179. Kg6 Kg8 180. Bg4 Kh8 181. Bc8 Kg8 182. Bg4 Kh8 183. Kf6 Kh7
184. Bd7 Kh8 185. Be6 Kh7 186. Bb3 Kh8 187. Bc2 Kg8 188. Kg6 Kh8 189. Bf5
Kg8 190. Bh3 Kh8 191. Kh6 Kg8 192. Kg6 Kh8 193. Bg4 Kg8 194. Bd7 Kh8 195.
Bg4 Kg8 196. Kf6 Kh8 197. Bf5 Kg8 198. Bg4 Kh8 199. Kf7 Kh7 200. Be2 Kh8
201. Kg6 Kg8 202. Kh6 Kh8 203. Bb5 Kg8 204. Kg6 Kh8 205. Bd3 Kg8 206. Bb5
Kh8 207. Ba4 Kg8 208. Bc6 Kh8 209. Bg2 Kg8 210. Bf3 Kh8 211. Bc6 Kg8 212.
Bf3 Kh8 213. Bd1 Kg8 214. Ba4 Kh8 215. Bb5 Kg8 216. Be8 Kh8 217. Ba4 Kg8
218. Bd7 Kh8 219. Be8 Kg8 220. Bc6 Kh8 221. Be8 Kg8 222. Ba4 Kh8 223. Bb5
Kg8 224. h6 Kh8 225. Ba4 Kg8 226. Bb3+ Kh8 227. Bd1 Kg8 228. Bf3 Kh8 229.
Kg5 Kh7 230. Bd5 Kh8 231. Be4 Kg8 232. Kg6 Kh8 233. Bf5 Kg8 234. Kg5 Kh8
235. Be6 Kh7 236. Bg4 Kh8 237. Kg6 Kg8 238. Bh5 Kh8 239. Bd1 Kg8 240. Bf3
Kh8 241. Bb7 Kg8 242. Be4 Kh8 243. Kf6 Kg8 244. Kg5 Kh8 245. Kg6 Kg8 246.
Bc2 Kh8 247. Be4 Kg8 248. Bb7 Kh8 249. Kg5 Kh7 250. Be4+ Kg8 251. Bf5 Kh8
252. Kg6 Kg8 253. Kf6 Kh8 254. Bb1 Kg8 255. Bg6 Kh8 256. Bd3 Kg8 257. Be2
Kh7 258. Kg5 Kh8 259. Bf3 Kh7 260. Bh5 Kh8 261. Bg6 Kg8 262. Bd3 Kh8 263.
Bf5 Kg8 264. Bd3 Kh8 265. Bg6 Kg8 266. Bb1 Kh8 267. Bf5 Kg8 268. Kf6 Kh8
269. Ke5 Kg8 270. Bb1 Kh8 271. Bf5 Kg8 272. Bg6 Kh8 273. Kd5 Kg8 274. h7+
Kg7 275. Kc4 Kh8 276. Kc3 Kg7 277. Kd2 Kh8 278. Bd3 Kg7 279. Kd1 Kh8 280.
Bg6 Kg7 281. Bf5 Kh8 282. Kc1 Kg7 283. Bc2 Kh8 284. Bb1 Kg7 285. Bd3 Kh8
286. Kd1 Kg7 287. Be4 Kh8 288. Kc2 Kg7 289. Kd3 Kh8 290. Kd4 Kg7 291. Bf5
Kh8 292. Bd3 Kg7 293. Ke5 Kh8 294. Kf4 Kg7 295. Kg5 Kh8 296. Be4 Kg7 297.
Bb1 Kh8 298. Kh5 Kg7 299. Kh4 Kh8 300. Kg5 Kg7 301. Kf4 Kh8 302. Ke5 Kg7
303. Ke6 Kh8 304. Bd3 Kg7 305. Kd5 Kh8 306. Ke5 Kg7 307. Kd5 Kh8 308. Kc4
Kg7 309. Kc5 Kh8 310. Bf5 Kg7 311. Bd3 Kh8 312. Kd4 Kg7 313. Ke3 Kh8 314.
Kf4 Kg7 315. Ke5 Kh8 316. Kd5 Kg7 317. Bc2 Kh8 318. Ke6 Kg7 319. Kd7 Kh8
320. Bd3 Kg7 321. Bf5 Kh8 322. Ke6 Kg7 323. h8=Q+ Kxh8[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

[quote=Chessqueen post_id=930041 time=1657627763 user_id=10732]
The EGTB experiment, I just started 1000 games Dragon 2.6.2 NoEGTB vs Dragon 2.6.1 (6 pieces EGTB). This will tell us the truth about the impact of using EGTB or Not. I believe there will be not to much difference in rating with the exception that Dragon(6pieces EGTB) will announce the WIn Draw or Lost much faster. Komodo Dragon or Stockfish without using any EGTB up to 6 Pieces can play as perfect as by using it.

This is why Komodo Dragon and Stockfish15 playing without any EGTB can beat most engines rated above 3400 if tested without 6 pieces EGTB. Komodo Dragon can even calculate this 8 pieces position precisely up to a forced drawish position since the h pawn can never promote

[pgn][Event "Endgame Knowledge"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2022.07.11"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Dragon-2.6.1-64bit-avx2"]
[Black "Dragon-2.6.1-64bit-avx2"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "3550"]
[Time "23:27:10"]
[WhiteElo "3550"]
[TimeControl "300+2"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r7/8/8/5bk1/8/5B2/5RPP/6K1 b - - 0 18"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "7"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

18. ... Ra1+ {(Ra8-a1+ Rf2-f1 Ra1xf1+ Kg1xf1 Bf5-h3 Kf1-f2 Bh3xg2 Bf3xg2
Kg5-f6 Bg2-f3 Kf6-f5 Kf2-g3 Kf5-g6 Kg3-h4 Kg6-g7 Kh4-g5 Kg7-h8 Kg5-f6
Kh8-g8 Bf3-d5+ Kg8-h8 Kf6-g5 Kh8-g7 Bd5-a8 Kg7-g8 Ba8-e4 Kg8-g7 Kg5-h4
Kg7-f8 Kh4-h5 Kf8-g7 Kh5-g4 Kg7-f6 Kg4-h4 Kf6-g7 Be4-f3 Kg7-g8 Kh4-g3
Kg8-h7) -2.14/31 13} 19. Rf1 {(Rf2-f1 Ra1xf1+ Kg1xf1 Bf5-h3 Kf1-f2 Bh3xg2
Bf3xg2 Kg5-f6 Bg2-f3 Kf6-e7 Bf3-a8 Ke7-f7 Kf2-g3 Kf7-g6 Ba8-g2 Kg6-f6
Bg2-c6 Kf6-e6 Bc6-f3 Ke6-f6 Kg3-h4 Kf6-g6 Bf3-e4+ Kg6-g7 Kh4-g3 Kg7-f7
Be4-d5+ Kf7-g7 Bd5-b3 Kg7-h7 Bb3-c2+ Kh7-g8 Bc2-d3 Kg8-f8 Bd3-b1 Kf8-g8
Bb1-c2 Kg8-f8 Bc2-h7 Kf8-g7) +2.14/34 12} Rxf1+ {(Ra1xf1+ Kg1xf1 Bf5-h3
Kf1-g1 Bh3xg2 Kg1xg2 Kg5-f6 Kg2-f2 Kf6-e7 Kf2-g3 Ke7-f6 Bf3-h1 Kf6-g7
Kg3-g4 Kg7-h7 Bh1-e4+ Kh7-g7 Kg4-f5 Kg7-h8 Kf5-f6 Kh8-g8 Be4-d5+ Kg8-h8
Kf6-g5 Kh8-g7 Bd5-b7 Kg7-g8 Bb7-c6 Kg8-h8 Kg5-g6 Kh8-g8 Kg6-f6 Kg8-h7
Kf6-g5) -2.14/27 7} 20. Kxf1 {(Kg1xf1 Bf5-h3 Bf3-e4 Kg5-f4 Be4-d3 Kf4-g5)
+1.68/5 0} Bh3 {(Bf5-h3 Kf1-g1 Bh3xg2 Kg1xg2 Kg5-f6 Kg2-g3 Kf6-g7 Kg3-h4
Kg7-f6 Kh4-h5 Kf6-f7 Kh5-g5 Kf7-g7 Kg5-f4 Kg7-h8 Kf4-g4 Kh8-g7 Kg4-g3
Kg7-f6 Kg3-h4 Kf6-g7 Bf3-h1 Kg7-f6 Kh4-h5 Kf6-f7 Bh1-d5+ Kf7-g7 Bd5-a2
Kg7-h8 Kh5-h4) -2.14/29 9} 21. Kf2 {(Kf1-f2 Bh3xg2 Bf3xg2 Kg5-f6 Bg2-a8
Kf6-f7 Kf2-g3 Kf7-g7 Ba8-d5 Kg7-f6 Bd5-c6 Kf6-g7 Bc6-e4 Kg7-f7 Be4-f3
Kf7-g7 Kg3-g4 Kg7-h8 Bf3-b7 Kh8-g8 Bb7-d5+ Kg8-g7 Kg4-f4 Kg7-f6 Bd5-f3
Kf6-g7 Kf4-e3 Kg7-g6 Bf3-e4+ Kg6-f6 Ke3-f3 Kf6-e7 Be4-d5 Ke7-f6) +2.14/31
34} Bxg2 {(Bh3xg2 Bf3xg2 Kg5-f6 Bg2-f3 Kf6-e7 Bf3-a8 Ke7-f7 Ba8-d5+ Kf7-g7
Kf2-g2 Kg7-f6 Kg2-f3 Kf6-e7 Kf3-g3 Ke7-f6 Bd5-h1 Kf6-g7 Bh1-b7 Kg7-f6
Bb7-d5 Kf6-g7 Bd5-c6 Kg7-f6 Bc6-e4 Kf6-f7 Be4-a8 Kf7-g7) -2.14/27 25} *[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

Rubichess fail to find the forcing Rook trade which will lead to a 6 pieces endgame, and all that it has to do is offer the Bishop as a Bait Bh3! either the Bishop is taken or NOT after the Black Bishop take the g2 pawn it will become a drawish position since the h pawns or pawn can not promote to a Queen.

[pgn][Endgame knowledge"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2022.07.12"]
[Round "?"]
[White "RubiChess-20220223_x86-64-avx2"]
[Black "RubiChess-20220223_x86-64-avx2"]
[Result "*"]
[BlackElo "3444"]
[Time "07:26:09"]
[WhiteElo "3444"]
[TimeControl "300+3"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r7/8/8/5bk1/8/5B2/5RPP/6K1 b - - 0 18"]
[Termination "unterminated"]
[PlyCount "3"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

18. ... Ra1+ {(Ra8-a1+ Rf2-f1 Ra1-a4 h2-h3 Bf5-e4 Bf3-e2 Be4-b7 Kg1-h2
Ra4-a2 Be2-f3 Bb7xf3 Rf1xf3 Kg5-h4 Rf3-f4+ Kh4-g5 Rf4-d4 Kg5-g6 Rd4-e4
Ra2-b2 Re4-f4 Rb2-b3 Rf4-d4 Kg6-h5 h3-h4 Kh5-g6 g2-g3 Kg6-h5 Kh2-h3 Kh5-g6
Rd4-d5 Kg6-h7 Kh3-g4 Rb3-b2 Kg4-f4 Rb2-b3 g3-g4 Rb3-b2 Rd5-d7+ Kh7-h6
Rd7-d6+ Kh6-g7 Rd6-e6 Rb2-b4+ Kf4-f5) -2.24/38 18} 19. Rf1 {(Rf2-f1 Ra1-a4
h2-h3 Kg5-h4 Kg1-h2 Kh4-g5 Rf1-e1 Ra4-a3 Re1-e8 Kg5-g6 Re8-d8 Kg6-g7 Rd8-d4
Bf5-g6 Rd4-b4 Ra3-a2 Kh2-g3 Ra2-a6 h3-h4 Ra6-f6 Rb4-b7+ Kg7-h6 Kg3-h3
Bg6-f5+ g2-g4 Bf5-c8 Rb7-b3 Bc8xg4+ Bf3xg4 Rf6-f4 Rb3-e3 Rf4-f8 Re3-e5
Kh6-g6 Kh3-g3 Kg6-f6 Kg3-f4 Kf6-g6+ Re5-f5 Rf8xf5+ Bg4xf5+ Kg6-h6 Bf5-g4
Kh6-g6 Kf4-e5 Kg6-h7) +2.48/39 18} Ra4 {(Ra1-a4 h2-h3 Kg5-h4 Kg1-h2 Kh4-g5
Rf1-e1 Ra4-a3 Re1-e8 Kg5-g6 Re8-d8 Kg6-g7 Rd8-d4 Bf5-g6 Rd4-b4 Ra3-a2
Kh2-g3 Ra2-a6 h3-h4 Kg7-h6 Kg3-f4 Ra6-f6+ Kf4-e3 Bg6-h5 Bf3-e4 Rf6-a6
Rb4-d4 Bh5-g6 Be4xg6 Ra6xg6 g2-g4 Rg6-g8 Ke3-f4 Rg8-f8+ Kf4-g3 Rf8-g8
Rd4-f4 Rg8-d8 Rf4-e4 Rd8-d3+ Kg3-f4 Rd3-a3 Re4-e6+ Kh6-g7 Re6-e7+ Kg7-f6
Re7-e3 Ra3-a4+ Re3-e4) -2.56/40 16} *[/pgn]

[Guenther]

I hope we are nearing your last post finally in this forum.

Since a month you flood the forum and all kind of unrelated threads with hijacking for one single one in a trillion endgame position
and also try to involve RubiChess in all those posts after he told you this:

Post by RubiChess » Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:04 pm

Chessqueen wrote: ↑
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:39 pm
I can NOT wait to test it :roll:

Every new post of you will delay any release by at least a week. Promised.

Your behaviour is childish and stupid and you are not even able to copy/paste a FEN or a link correctly
and logic is something completely alien to you.

I hope moderation cleans up now the poor 'Caissa' thread.

[Chessqueen]

I hope we are nearing your last post finally in this forum.

Since a month you flood the forum and all kind of unrelated threads with hijacking for one single one in a trillion endgame position
and also try to involve RubiChess in all those posts after he told you this:

Post by RubiChess » Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:04 pm

Chessqueen wrote: ↑
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:39 pm
I can NOT wait to test it

Every new post of you will delay any release by at least a week. Promised.

Your behaviour is childish and stupid and you are not even able to copy/paste a FEN or a link correctly
and logic is something completely alien to you.

I hope moderation cleans up now the poor 'Caissa' thread.

It is NOT a poor Caissa thread, as a matter of fact it is a good thread because Caissa if you remove the two Rooks is able to find the correct Bh3! Bait and if some engines are not able to detect the tricky Bh3! Bait the game will end up in a Draw since by moving the g pawn to g3 it is the only winning move for White to reject the Bishop offer, it seems that every time I post something here you are poise to say something negative about my posts in reality my post are very instructive which encourage programmers to incorporate better endgame knowledge into their engines without relying that every body has enough hard drive storage to install up to 7 pieces EGTB, I just purchased a larger hard drive in order to start testing up to 7 pieces EBTB if I want to, but at the moment I do NOT believe that I have the need to always test with 7 pieces EGTB since the two top engines which are Stockfish 15 and Komodo Dragon can solve 99% of the 7 pieces EGTB by themselves even if it take a little longer to come up with the same result. I have NOT seen you posting to anybody else soo many negative anti posts as you do as soon as I post anything here. Would you like and appreciate if somebody here as soon as you post anything say something negative about any of your posts.

Tell me why do you consider this post negative about Caissa nor Rubichess, I am only pointing improvements that needs to be incorporated into these extremely GREAT engines that are only lacking a little more endgame knowledge for those that do NOT have large hard drive for 7 pieces EGTB or even 6 pieces EGTB. And as I said and mentioned before I am NOT that person that you believe that I am I do NOT even live in the USA for your wrongful accusations of who you believe that I am. Try to guess in the wrong place USA, which I do NOT live there As I told you before.
https://www.facebook.com/public/Jorge-Pichardo
https://twitter.com/pichardo_2018
https://findpeoplefast.net/people/jorge-pichardo
https://www.instagram.com/jorgepichardomx/?hl=en
https://mx.linkedin.com/in/jorge-pichar ... IznR_zAg0-
[pgn][Event "Endgame Knowledge"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2022.07.11"]
[Round "*"]
[White "RubiChess-20220223_x86-64-avx2"]
[Black "Caissa-BMI2"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "2000"]
[Time "18:46:26"]
[WhiteElo "2000"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "8/8/8/5bk1/8/5B2/6PP/5K2 b - - 0 18"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "611"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

18. ... Bh3 19. gxh3 Kf4 20. Kf2 Ke5 21. Kg3 Kf6 22. Kg4 Kg7 23. Kg5 Kh7
24. Kh4 Kh8 25. Bc6 Kh7 26. Kg5 Kg7 27. Bb5 Kg8 28. h4 Kh7 29. Bd3+ Kg7 30.
h5 Kf7 31. Bc4+ Kg7 32. Be2 Kh8 33. Bg4 Kg8 34. Kh6 Kh8 35. Bf3 Kg8 36.
Bd5+ Kh8 37. Bf3 Kg8 38. Bg4 Kh8 39. Bd1 Kg8 40. Kg6 Kh8 41. Kf7 Kh7 42. h6
Kh8 43. Be2 Kh7 44. Bf1 Kh8 45. Kf6 Kg8 46. Bg2 Kh8 47. Bf1 Kg8 48. Ke7 Kh7
49. Kf7 Kh8 50. Bb5 Kh7 51. Ba6 Kh8 52. Kf6 Kh7 53. Bd3+ Kg8 54. h4 Kh8 55.
Ke7 Kg8 56. Ke6 Kh8 57. Bc2 Kg8 58. Kd7 Kh8 59. Bf5 Kg8 60. Ke8 Kh8 61. Bg6
Kg8 62. Be4 Kh8 63. Bc2 Kg8 64. Be4 Kh8 65. Kd7 Kg8 66. Bc2 Kh8 67. Ke7 Kg8
68. Ke6 Kh8 69. Bf5 Kg8 70. Ke7 Kh8 71. Kd6 Kg8 72. Ke6 Kh8 73. Bd3 Kg8 74.
Be4 Kh8 75. Bf5 Kg8 76. Bd3 Kh8 77. h5 Kg8 78. Be2 Kh7 79. Kf7 Kh8 80. Bb5
Kh7 81. Bd3+ Kh8 82. Bc4 Kh7 83. Bd3+ Kh8 84. Ke7 Kg8 85. Bf5 Kh8 86. Ke6
Kg8 87. Kf6 Kh8 88. Bb1 Kg8 89. Bd3 Kh8 90. Ke6 Kg8 91. Be2 Kh7 92. Kf7 Kh8
93. Bf3 Kh7 94. Be4+ Kh8 95. Bc6 Kh7 96. Be8 Kh8 97. Bd7 Kh7 98. Bf5+ Kh8
99. Kg6 Kg8 100. Bd3 Kh8 101. Bb5 Kg8 102. Bd3 Kh8 103. Be4 Kg8 104. Bf3
Kh8 105. Bc6 Kg8 106. Bd7 Kh8 107. Bf5 Kg8 108. Kf6 Kh8 109. Bg6 Kg8 110.
Be4 Kh8 111. Kg6 Kg8 112. Bf5 Kh8 113. Bd3 Kg8 114. Bf5 Kh8 115. Bd3 Kg8
116. Kf6 Kh8 117. Bf5 Kg8 118. Bg6 Kh8 119. Be4 Kg8 120. Kg6 Kh8 121. Bc6
Kg8 122. Bd7 Kh8 123. Kf7 Kh7 124. Bf5+ Kh8 125. Ke6 Kg8 126. h7+ Kh8 127.
Kd5 Kg7 128. Ke6 Kh8 129. Ke5 Kg7 130. Be4 Kh8 131. Kd6 Kg7 132. Bf5 Kh8
133. Kd5 Kg7 134. Kd4 Kh8 135. Bb1 Kg7 136. Bf5 Kh8 137. Kc5 Kg7 138. Kd5
Kh8 139. Ke4 Kg7 140. Kd3 Kh8 141. Bg6 Kg7 142. Ke4 Kh8 143. Bf5 Kg7 144.
Kd3 Kh8 145. Be4 Kg7 146. Kd4 Kh8 147. Bg6 Kg7 148. Kd5 Kh8 149. Bd3 Kg7
150. Ke6 Kh8 151. Bg6 Kg7 152. Ke5 Kh8 153. Bf5 Kg7 154. Bg6 Kh8 155. Kd6
Kg7 156. Kc6 Kh8 157. Be4 Kg7 158. Kd5 Kh8 159. Bd3 Kg7 160. Bf5 Kh8 161.
Kd6 Kg7 162. Bg6 Kh8 163. Be4 Kg7 164. Kd5 Kh8 165. Ke5 Kg7 166. Kd4 Kh8
167. Kd5 Kg7 168. Ke5 Kh8 169. Bg6 Kg7 170. Kf5 Kh8 171. Kg5 Kg7 172. Be4
Kh8 173. Bf5 Kg7 174. h8=R Kxh8 175. Kg6 Kg8 176. Bc8 Kh8 177. Bd7 Kg8 178.
Kg5 Kh8 179. Kg6 Kg8 180. Bg4 Kh8 181. Bc8 Kg8 182. Bg4 Kh8 183. Kf6 Kh7
184. Bd7 Kh8 185. Be6 Kh7 186. Bb3 Kh8 187. Bc2 Kg8 188. Kg6 Kh8 189. Bf5
Kg8 190. Bh3 Kh8 191. Kh6 Kg8 192. Kg6 Kh8 193. Bg4 Kg8 194. Bd7 Kh8 195.
Bg4 Kg8 196. Kf6 Kh8 197. Bf5 Kg8 198. Bg4 Kh8 199. Kf7 Kh7 200. Be2 Kh8
201. Kg6 Kg8 202. Kh6 Kh8 203. Bb5 Kg8 204. Kg6 Kh8 205. Bd3 Kg8 206. Bb5
Kh8 207. Ba4 Kg8 208. Bc6 Kh8 209. Bg2 Kg8 210. Bf3 Kh8 211. Bc6 Kg8 212.
Bf3 Kh8 213. Bd1 Kg8 214. Ba4 Kh8 215. Bb5 Kg8 216. Be8 Kh8 217. Ba4 Kg8
218. Bd7 Kh8 219. Be8 Kg8 220. Bc6 Kh8 221. Be8 Kg8 222. Ba4 Kh8 223. Bb5
Kg8 224. h6 Kh8 225. Ba4 Kg8 226. Bb3+ Kh8 227. Bd1 Kg8 228. Bf3 Kh8 229.
Kg5 Kh7 230. Bd5 Kh8 231. Be4 Kg8 232. Kg6 Kh8 233. Bf5 Kg8 234. Kg5 Kh8
235. Be6 Kh7 236. Bg4 Kh8 237. Kg6 Kg8 238. Bh5 Kh8 239. Bd1 Kg8 240. Bf3
Kh8 241. Bb7 Kg8 242. Be4 Kh8 243. Kf6 Kg8 244. Kg5 Kh8 245. Kg6 Kg8 246.
Bc2 Kh8 247. Be4 Kg8 248. Bb7 Kh8 249. Kg5 Kh7 250. Be4+ Kg8 251. Bf5 Kh8
252. Kg6 Kg8 253. Kf6 Kh8 254. Bb1 Kg8 255. Bg6 Kh8 256. Bd3 Kg8 257. Be2
Kh7 258. Kg5 Kh8 259. Bf3 Kh7 260. Bh5 Kh8 261. Bg6 Kg8 262. Bd3 Kh8 263.
Bf5 Kg8 264. Bd3 Kh8 265. Bg6 Kg8 266. Bb1 Kh8 267. Bf5 Kg8 268. Kf6 Kh8
269. Ke5 Kg8 270. Bb1 Kh8 271. Bf5 Kg8 272. Bg6 Kh8 273. Kd5 Kg8 274. h7+
Kg7 275. Kc4 Kh8 276. Kc3 Kg7 277. Kd2 Kh8 278. Bd3 Kg7 279. Kd1 Kh8 280.
Bg6 Kg7 281. Bf5 Kh8 282. Kc1 Kg7 283. Bc2 Kh8 284. Bb1 Kg7 285. Bd3 Kh8
286. Kd1 Kg7 287. Be4 Kh8 288. Kc2 Kg7 289. Kd3 Kh8 290. Kd4 Kg7 291. Bf5
Kh8 292. Bd3 Kg7 293. Ke5 Kh8 294. Kf4 Kg7 295. Kg5 Kh8 296. Be4 Kg7 297.
Bb1 Kh8 298. Kh5 Kg7 299. Kh4 Kh8 300. Kg5 Kg7 301. Kf4 Kh8 302. Ke5 Kg7
303. Ke6 Kh8 304. Bd3 Kg7 305. Kd5 Kh8 306. Ke5 Kg7 307. Kd5 Kh8 308. Kc4
Kg7 309. Kc5 Kh8 310. Bf5 Kg7 311. Bd3 Kh8 312. Kd4 Kg7 313. Ke3 Kh8 314.
Kf4 Kg7 315. Ke5 Kh8 316. Kd5 Kg7 317. Bc2 Kh8 318. Ke6 Kg7 319. Kd7 Kh8
320. Bd3 Kg7 321. Bf5 Kh8 322. Ke6 Kg7 323. h8=Q+ Kxh8[/pgn]

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Günther,

these messages created such impressions, yes!

On the other hand is every point of view interesting.
This creates new ideas for things we can do in the time we have.

Code: Select all

   1 ShashChess 21.1 NN         :  3345.35    357    62.7   92   264     1   224.0   73.9  19.48  3238.90  17.11   36.4
   2 Stockfish 15 NN            :  3341.51    360    62.4   89   271     0   224.5   75.3  18.64  3237.99  17.31   36.2
   3 Koivisto 8.6 NN            :  3324.00    487    62.8  132   348     7   306.0   71.5  15.91  3229.65  17.33   38.5
   4 Fire 8 MC.3 NN             :  3323.35    332    61.1   85   236    11   203.0   71.1  19.06  3232.12  17.37   36.7
   5 Dragon 2.6 NN (Komodo)     :  3319.53    428    59.1   80   346     2   253.0   80.8  15.95  3243.01  17.35   36.3
   6 Berserk 8.5.1 NN           :  3318.86    454    62.1  125   314    15   282.0   69.2  16.28  3230.38  17.28   38.3
   7 rofChade 2.321 NN dev      :  3305.90    412    59.7   98   296    18   246.0   71.8  16.52  3232.37  17.18   37.1
   8 Revenge 2.0 NN             :  3300.41    287    58.4   66   203    18   167.5   70.7  20.22  3235.88  16.97   35.3
   9 Caissa 0.5 NNSf            :  3299.69    408    60.7  107   281    20   247.5   68.9  17.35  3220.45  17.16   38.2
  10 Seer 2.4.0 NN              :  3291.05    356    58.8   93   233    30   209.5   65.4  17.84  3228.81  17.27   37.8

Endgame stats from Caissa 0.5.
The strength from Caissa is the endgame, no doubt about it ... to 100% clear!
If people like endgames Caissa is interesting.
Nothing to do with Stockfish Network or not.
Wit the same Network file Caissa made +200 Elo from version 0.4 to 0.5.
And Endgame stats from Caissa 0.4 are strong also.

RubiChess is not inside in TOP-10 endgame stats from my "run-4"
On 13 ... 15 Elo lesser.

The advantage from RubiChess is that in all the gaming phases RubiChess is playing with the same power.
Not possible to give RubiChess a playing style / face ... because for the Elo RubiChess has no weaknesses and strengths to see. We can say, all what RubiChess can do is clearly over the average and very consistant. And this is of course more interesting as Caissa. Caissa have a lot of problems ... the program is not consistant enough. It seems all is very fresh and not optimated in detail.

Examples:
- to many short draw games
- highest move average for won games from all engines I tested in the last two years.
- high move average general
- from 100 games 1-2 times Engines crashed
- often Engine do nothing in middlegames, games looking very boring

And all this with SF NN.



SF is playing perfect chess for me.
But Caissa with SF NN is playing ... for me ... most boring chess I ever saw.
Other like endgames and thinking ... the opinion from Frank is wrong.
I am looking more for aggressives engines.

Chessqueen should have a look on Seer 2.5.0 ...

Endgame stats from "run-6" ...

Code: Select all

   # Player                     :      Elo  Games  Score%  won  draw  lost  Points  Draw%  Error   OppAvg   OppE   OppD
   1 Stockfish 020622 NN dev    :  3341.98    364    62.1   88   276     0   226.0   75.8  18.54  3240.17  17.12   36.1
   2 Seer 2.5.0 NN              :  3334.47    373    64.5  120   241    12   240.5   64.6  18.57  3224.73  17.13   37.8
   3 Fire 8 MC.3 NN             :  3332.14    358    63.0   99   253     6   225.5   70.7  19.43  3226.82  17.19   35.9
   4 Koivisto 8.9 NN            :  3320.92    464    62.3  118   342     4   289.0   73.7  16.06  3229.23  17.38   38.3
   5 Dragon 3 NN (Komodo)       :  3318.90    398    58.8   73   322     3   234.0   80.9  16.52  3240.93  17.30   36.5
   6 Berserk 9 NN dev3          :  3311.05    507    60.9  120   378     9   309.0   74.6  15.55  3227.61  17.20   38.1
   7 Revenge 2.0 NN             :  3306.92    289    59.3   68   207    14   171.5   71.6  20.06  3235.44  17.01   34.7
   8 rofChade 3.0 NN            :  3304.99    378    60.4   90   277    11   228.5   73.3  18.21  3227.98  17.20   38.3
   9 Arasan 23.3 NN             :  3294.76    340    59.1   75   252    13   201.0   74.1  17.52  3225.31  17.03   36.9
  10 Minic 3.22 NN              :  3292.49    440    60.8  114   307    19   267.5   69.8  16.47  3214.48  17.12   38.1

Not the topic I like ... the endgames.
But I have different material about it and here Seer is at the moment here most interesting.
Fact is fact ...

And Seer is not playing boring chess.
More defensive as others with same strength. In the late mid-games Seer is very danger!

I believe the Caissa programmer can do a lot and his main interest seems the endgames.
Example: Such a program Ktulu was ... for Rahman are endgames with rooks most important as all other things together.

Stats become more and more importance.
Often we can see only with stats.

What I like to say is:
Caissa is not such a program I like but for sure a program many others will like.
People have more interest on endgames / interest are different.

Personal opinion:
It make more sense for me to looking in Seer as in Caissa for interesting endgame positions.

Best
Frank

[Guenther]

... snip blabla stupid OT defense...

And as I said and mentioned before I am NOT that person that you believe that I am I do NOT even live in the USA for your wrongful accusations of who you believe that I am. Try to guess in the wrong place USA which I do NOT live there As I told you before.
https://findpeoplefast.net/people/jorge-pichardo
https://twitter.com/pichardo_2018

...

and once in a while 'pichy' comes up with 'I am not what I am' lol
I really couldn't care less, but ... after you lie again, here the one and only JLP troll

https://www.facebook.com/jnspichardo
https://www.facebook.com/jnspichardo/likes_all

and we can also post all your previous nicks before and all their messages,
which always say and talk the same since pichy1 in 1999.

Isn't this boring for you or is this a kind of schizophrenia - don't you want to be yourself anymore?
A forum cannot help then.

[Cardoso]

I don't know the differences between those two Dragon versions but in principle that isn't very scientific, if you want to test EGTB impact in an engine performance you should use the exact same version of the engine but one with TBs and the other without. Also you should make many thousands of games not 1 thousand.
There shouldn't be any difference since when a game reaches a win by TBs that win was reached by very good play well before this phase.
But anyway use the same engine version and make 20,000 games and then tell us the results.

[Guenther]

Hi Günther,

these messages created such impressions, yes!

He posted already 100-150 posts about the same position already since mid June and pichy is trolling here since over 20 years
and now he hates RubiChess and Ethereal for telling him the truth.
He always needs to find a thread to inject his OT messages for his agenda. because his own threads are unread/unreplied.
Surely dozens of people left due to him.

That's it and it cannot be cured.

[Frank Quisinsky]

Hi Günther,

yes I saw that ...
Can share your opinion.

Not easy to find information from him can be interesting for me (speaking for me).

Best
Frank