Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

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AndrewGrant
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by AndrewGrant »

lkaufman wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 5:56 pm The difference between his performance in the first three rounds (with no delay in broadcast), and the final six rounds (with delay), was very large. The win over Carlsen is the game in question, so that can't be considered as evidence of his strength, and the draw with Nepo was from a probably losing position where Nepo just failed to take a pawn that most patzers would have taken. This dropoff after round 3 is consistent with the huge difference in his performance in broadcast vs nonbroadcast events over a 2 year period reported in this thread. Until a couple days ago I thought that the cheating was confined to online, but now it doesn't look that way. Niemann is surely of grandmaster (FIDE 2500+) strength, but there is a huge difference between grandmaster strength and WC candidate (2800) strength, or even 2700 (FIDE) strength.
Emphasis mine.

I think this is a false sign to look at. Let us suppose first that Hans is indeed cheating. He beats Magnus, the accusations come out, and then Hans fears detection, has to reign in the cheating, or maybe simply cannot cheat given the increased measures, and now performs very badly compared to his initial games.

Let us now suppose that Hans is indeed innocent. He beats Magnus, the accusations come out, chesscom moves to remove him from their events, the entire chess world has pitch forks ready. Suddenly he is afraid to make any moves without deep calculation. In the middle of the game he is wondering what to say in the post-game analysis instead of thinking. He is wondering if his entire life and dream and career is over.

In both cases, he plays worse in the final games.
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M ANSARI
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by M ANSARI »

I think a lot of people originally were thinking Magnus is just upset he lost so he is making a fuss about nothing (including me). But really if you watch the interview about cheating in chess MC made a while back, it is almost prophetic. He talks about how you need to be extra careful that you are not wrongly accusing someone, especially up and coming young players, and that you need to give that person the benefit of the doubt until you are absolutely sure. MC has a lot of experience playing chess and probably is the strongest chess player of all time. He mentions that he can feel when someone is cheating because there usually is a certain human logic behind strong move and if the continuation to that strong move is not logical then it makes no sense for a human to play it. He does also mention that you really don't need to know many moves ... just that one move is much better than the other move ... just that ... once or twice in a game is enough for a strong player to be invincible. Just the fact that MC feels that Hans was cheating speaks volumes. You could say that he was just being a bad sport ... but he has lost many times before to kids and actually praised them and it maybe even motivated him to come back and beat them. He also has a history of starting tournaments slowly with losses in the beginning and then coming back to win them. He does mention that the psychological effect of thinking that someone is using an engine against you dramatically changes how you will play. Traps ... even the deepest traps just don't work against engines ... the type of chess you will have to play is totally different to humans. I highly recommend everyone watch this as it seems incredibly relevant to the present conversation regardless of what you think about the subject. Personally, I still think that Hans should be treated as innocent until proven guilty ... I mean if even there was .1% he wasn't cheating in this tournament, he should be innocent until proven guilty. However I do think that his game against Mamadyarov and against Firouzja and against MC were extremely suspicious. Plus his post game analysis was just ridiculous and hard to just wave off. Add to that the fact that now it seems that he was a serial cheater ... it does warrant extra scrutiny. All his games should be tabulated and scrutinized and compared to other GM's with similar meteoric ELO gains. I think then we can really have a better idea of what is going on.

To those who missed MC prophetic interview here it is

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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by marsell »

If he suspects that Hans has cheated, he should speak plainly. But like this, he is just a bad loser with a very bad character.
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M ANSARI
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by M ANSARI »

marsell wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:13 am If he suspects that Hans has cheated, he should speak plainly. But like this, he is just a bad loser with a very bad character.
I am sure that he would love to speak but his lawyers have probably told him to keep his mouth shut. So he is "speaking" without speaking.
acepoint_de
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by acepoint_de »

DrCliche wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 6:20 am If you run a regression on the above dataset, you will find that whether or not a tournament was broadcast live explains 67% (!!!!!) of the variation in Niemann's performance over that time period. (The rest of the variation is likely random, or at least isn't explained by age, number of rounds, or strength of opponents.)
...
This is incredibly damning, and in my mind confirms beyond a shadow of a doubt that Niemann was cheating OVER THE BOARD at every available opportunity in 2019 and 2020. There's no reason to believe that he didn't and doesn't simply continue to cheat over the board at every available opportunity, period.
In my humble opinion this is an extremely valuable approach to cheating detection. Thank you! Triggered by the the incident and the nonsense I read here and there after last weeks Monday I wrote an article a day after about what is generally possible in detection and what not. I also considered rating development as a measurement for certainty (not evidence) but didn't take into account the difference between broadcast or not.
(It goes without saying that all ratings agencies should probably be doing much more sophisticated analysis than this for all players and all tournaments at all times. The fact that they don't can only be interpreted as gross and willful negligence.)
It would be interesting to do an additional research on the error rate for all these games including a measurement of complexity, similar as Chessbase/Fritz does it. And a supervising on top by 2700+ GM.
At Sinquefield Cup, Niemann has gone from 2.5/3.0 before the 15 minute delay, to 1.5/5.0 after the 15 minute delay. Obviously, this is a very small sample. But, if you will permit some editorializing, despite Niemann's claims that "it's impossible to play under these conditions," he gives every indication of quite enjoying the attention.
Here I don't agree. I think you need to be very, very stable not being influenced by an incident and (hidden) accusation like this after round 3.

Ciao

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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by DrCliche »

RandomGuy321 wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 1:07 amHey, thanks for getting back to me. I appreciate looking at the work you did since you sometimes don't get such interesting examples of statistical methods in a classroom setting (I took a class last semester). So, if he didn't cheat otb in this period, it would be historic right? I am curious how a predictive model would compare to Hans's performance this year if he were to stay on track from that specific date range you analyzed.
Though regressions can be used as predictive models, that's not really the interpretation that I think makes the most sense, here. Implicit in my analysis is the idea that cherry picking of the interval is irrelevant, or maybe even desired. My contention is that it would be worrying if any player's performances were correlated with broadcast status over any large, unbroken span of games.

Obviously, if a player participates in enough tournaments, we can most likely construct a sizable dataset out of broadcast tournaments where he performed well, and non-broadcast tournaments where he performed poorly. That would be dishonest, to say the least. But if we're trying to answer a question like, "Are there any significant stretches where it appears a player might have been cheating?" then in fact you probably do want to pick a sufficiently long interval (at least a year?) and then cherry pick a player's worst span of that length.

(Hence I'm unconcerned if the original tweeter actually did this. He picked a solid 20 month interval, and included all classical games from it, which seems reasonable to me. My only real concern about that data is the possibility that the original tweeter might have systematically erred or lied about broadcast status in just the right way. I didn't find any evidence of that, but I also wasn't able to definitively confirm all of his broadcast status claims.)

One argument you might make in favor of such an interval selection procedure is to contend that, most likely, not all cheaters actually cheat all of the time.

Just to wildly speculate, maybe your cheating method requires a confidant to stand within 100 meters of you with a phone that connects via bluetooth to eardrum monitors. Maybe your buddy's willing to drive to most American tournaments, but doesn't have the time or resources to follow you when you spend a year in Europe. Or maybe your confidant graduates from college and no longer has much free time. Or maybe after you accomplish an important goal like earning a title, you think to yourself, "Wow, I can't believe I pulled that off without getting caught. I'd better cool it for a while," and then you stop cheating for a stretch.

Et cetera. I'm sure you can think of any number of scenarios. But since the most pressing question is "Did this person ever cheat?" and not "Did this person cheat most of the time?" I think it's well motivated to try to identify a player's most damning interval. And thus you're not really using regression analysis to predict performance, but rather to identify blocks of games that have unusual correlations, and to get a feel for how performance was influenced by various explanatory variables in those games.

In my analysis, Niemann's broadcast status regression coefficient was large and positive, with a p-value of 0.00088, if I recall correctly. That's a fairly high degree of statistical significance, but you'd still expect about 1/1,000 players to have a comparable stretch as bad or worse than that, and that doesn't mean they're all cheaters. Even after you identify a potentially suspicious player, you still want to do further analysis to see if cheating seems like the best mechanism for explaining your observations:
  • For example, maybe you identify a player with a tiny p-value, but their broadcast status regression coefficient is negative. So their performance is getting worse at broadcast tournaments? It's hard to understand how the option to easily cheat would make someone play worse, so maybe that's just random chance. (Or maybe a lot of their opponents are cheating?)
  • Maybe you identify a mediocre player whose broadcast status regression coefficient is positive and significant, but quite small, so they appear to perform just a tiny bit better at broadcast tournaments. Why would someone go to that much trouble to perform only slightly better? Maybe it's just random, or there's actually some confounder that can entirely explain such a modest effect. (E.g. they tend to play in local, non-broadcast tournaments throughout the busy school year, but travel to lots of broadcast tournaments over the Summer, when they also dedicate lots of time to studying chess.)
  • Maybe you identify a player whose broadcast status regression coefficient is positive and significant, but within that span there are multiple instances of broadcast tournaments where they could have, say, earned a norm, but failed to do so, despite performing somewhat better than expected. Maybe that's just a bad, dumb, or overly cautious cheater, but I think most people would expect such a player to be extra motivated to cheat in order to achieve a concrete goal like earning a norm. So maybe it's just random.
On the other hand, if you identify a player with a large, positive, significant broadcast status regression coefficient, and despite looking for various confounders you can't identify anything remotely plausible that could explain such a large effect, and this player is widely known to have multiple instances of online cheating, even in money tournaments, and some of his peers seem to have vague suspicions that his true ability might be quite a bit lower than his rating, and then you look at the specific characteristics of each tournament in a suspicious interval, and note that not only did this player overperform in broadcast tournaments, he REALLY overperformed in precisely those tournaments where a norm was on the table (with average centipawn loss statistics better than any super-GM's historical best), and he just so happened to only attend norm tournaments that had a live broadcast, etc.

All of these observations are like sticking your finger in the air to see which way the wind's blowing. If the wind always seems to be blowing in the same direction every time you check ... well, there might just be a storm coming.
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by Chessqueen »

DrCliche wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 10:40 am
RandomGuy321 wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 1:07 amHey, thanks for getting back to me. I appreciate looking at the work you did since you sometimes don't get such interesting examples of statistical methods in a classroom setting (I took a class last semester). So, if he didn't cheat otb in this period, it would be historic right? I am curious how a predictive model would compare to Hans's performance this year if he were to stay on track from that specific date range you analyzed.
All of these observations are like sticking your finger in the air to see which way the wind's blowing. If the wind always seems to be blowing in the same direction every time you check ... well, there might just be a storm coming.
Worse than that, no matter what people here on this forum post, it has been already decided and over, GM Hans if he is really cheating will have to be caught in another tournament, but I doubt that he is cheating :roll:

Note: Anyway here are some analysis
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by Uri Blass »

M ANSARI wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:22 am
marsell wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:13 am If he suspects that Hans has cheated, he should speak plainly. But like this, he is just a bad loser with a very bad character.
I am sure that he would love to speak but his lawyers have probably told him to keep his mouth shut. So he is "speaking" without speaking.
Even if you are 100% sure that your opponent cheated then this is not a good reason to quit the tournament.
Quitting a tournament with no good reason is a bad behaviour and organizers of tournaments can punish carlsen and not invite him to participate in chess tournaments.
mehmet123
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by mehmet123 »

Hans Niemann 2019-2020 Tournament Results:

USCF performance rating with NO LIVE GAMES:2404

USCF performance rating with LIVE GAMES:2610

USCF Rating Change with NO LIVE GAMES: -112

USCF Rating Change with LIVE GAMES: +131

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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by lkaufman »

Uri Blass wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:53 pm
M ANSARI wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:22 am
marsell wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 9:13 am If he suspects that Hans has cheated, he should speak plainly. But like this, he is just a bad loser with a very bad character.
I am sure that he would love to speak but his lawyers have probably told him to keep his mouth shut. So he is "speaking" without speaking.
Even if you are 100% sure that your opponent cheated then this is not a good reason to quit the tournament.
Quitting a tournament with no good reason is a bad behaviour and organizers of tournaments can punish carlsen and not invite him to participate in chess tournaments.
If Carlsen was reasonably sure that Niemann had cheated against him, then he would probably have said something to the organizers along the lines of "either he is expelled or I will quit". Since he didn't have proof of cheating, the organizers couldn't expel Neimann, so Carlsen felt he had to quit. Otherwise it would amount to accepting that his defeat was legitimate, and then if others did well vs. Neimann after stronger measures were adopted (as they did), it would be unfair to Carlsen. I can see why he would want the Neimann win to be annulled from the tournament standings if he was convinced of cheating. Whether he actually had evidence of cheating at that time I don't know.
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