Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

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Graham Banks
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by Graham Banks »

The world's greatest expert on cheating detection in chess...

In 2006, at the cusp of the infamous 'toiletgate' controversy during the World Championship, he was brought in to provide expert analysis of the cheating accusations leveraged by the Topalov Team against Vladimir Kramnik. The claims were that Kramnik's moves in Game Two, the point of bitter contention, achieved an unreal 80%+ match with the best engine of the time, Rybka. Dr. Regan confirmed this claim, but debunked the cheating accusations. He demonstrated that many of the moves that matched the engine were in fact quite forced, and if you eliminated these forced moves from the analysis, then the overall match in moves was in fact quite normal.

He has since been used by FIDE to supplement expert analysis in cases such as Sebastien Feller, Igor Rausis, and general oversight of major events.

Regan has developed statistical methods to prove cheating in a series of scientific papers which are accessible on his homepage.
gbanksnz at gmail.com
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M ANSARI
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by M ANSARI »

Giri was on yesterday and he mentioned that it was well known amongst GM circles that Hans was a serial cheater ... and he says that there are a few other GM's as well. Giri actually mentions that Hans plays very poorly against him ... so obviously he does not think he cheats every move or all the time. Nepo as well mentioned the same thing ... that sometimes he sees very poor play from Hans ... and then suddenly when he is playing one of the top players he starts playing strongly ... he definitely thinks Hans uses engine help in those situations. Then you had Aronian yesterday saying he has changed his mind that MC was being paranoid and thought that Hans was not "clean" and he could understand MC point of view. Obviously, this all has nothing to do with whether Hans has cheated in his latest games but rather that he has a "history" of cheating. Hans has admitted to cheating only twice ... once at 12 and once at 16 ... I find that hard to believe and apparently Chess.com has proof that this is not the case. I guess if you have cheated many times before it is not unusual for people to think that you might do it again. Hans has had an astronomical rise in ELO strength and has beaten quite handily some of the top players in the world (including MC the WCC). These were not one move blunders in time trouble, but rather a total outplaying of some of the most creative and strong players. Many red flags and I can't blame anyone for not wanting to play against him in this situation. Personally I think if someone is caught cheating in chess they should be banned for life or at least 5 or 10 years of being clean. It is unfair for chess players to have to think that the other side might be cheating ... that just would reduce his level of play would be unfair.
Peter Berger
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by Peter Berger »

I don’t quite understand the criticism of Magnus Carlsen.
By now even chrisw will likely agree that Magnus thinks Hans Niemann cheated against him. He decided to not give any explanations (which probably means that he got very good legal advice), but to not play him ever again.
He was contractionally obliged to play in the Julius Bär tournament, so he does. He is even likely to win it – then there will most likely not be another tournament with both of them competing - ever.
Magnus is a sore loser (like about any great chessplayer), but he has always been a good sport. No one can reasonaly think that he’d ever quit just because he underperforms.
Personally I think that Magnus will have reasonable proof, that is good enough for him himself. And as he is the best chessplayer on the planet, his verdict carries some weight for me. He may be wrong, but if he personally thinks he is right, I can’t imagine a better way to deal with it.
Eduard
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by Eduard »

It doesn't even matter if Niemann cheated. If Carlsen had won everything would have been OK. Everything stands and falls with the performance of Carlsen. That can't be right. What would have happened if Carlsen wasn't world champion? Would he only be No. 12 in the rankings? Could he behave like that without being disqualified himself? Just because he's the world champion, does he get to do whatever he wants?
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AdminX
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by AdminX »

Eduard wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:38 pm It doesn't even matter if Niemann cheated. If Carlsen had won everything would have been OK. Everything stands and falls with the performance of Carlsen. That can't be right. What would have happened if Carlsen wasn't world champion? Would he only be No. 12 in the rankings? Could he behave like that without being disqualified himself? Just because he's the world champion, does he get to do whatever he wants?
Kasparov has, Fischer has, and Carlsen has already done so. He decided to not defend his title. They used to decide who they wanted to play for their title.
Last edited by AdminX on Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
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Ted Summers
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by Fritz 0 »

Eduard wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:38 pm It doesn't even matter if Niemann cheated. If Carlsen had won everything would have been OK. Everything stands and falls with the performance of Carlsen. That can't be right. What would have happened if Carlsen wasn't world champion? Would he only be No. 12 in the rankings? Could he behave like that without being disqualified himself? Just because he's the world champion, does he get to do whatever he wants?
He didn't get anything. He withdrew from Saint Louis and resigned a game at this online event. And he would certainly not do that without a good reason.
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by Eduard »

Carlsen knew before the tournament in St. Louis that Niemann would play. Then why is he playing there if he thinks his opponent is cheating? His game against Niemann proves nothing. Does he want to publicly portray the young player as a cheat just because he's world champion and he thinks he can (which others can't)? There is no other way to explain his behavior. Nobody walks away because of a lost game. Just because he's world champion, he's allowed to do things that others aren't allowed to do. He thinks he has a special position to even play the judge. Good to know that Carlsen will now determine who is a cheater or not - and who can and can't play. Carlsen is the boss!
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by Peter Berger »

Eduard wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:10 pm Carlsen knew before the tournament in St. Louis that Niemann would play. Then why is he playing there if he thinks his opponent is cheating? His game against Niemann proves nothing. Does he want to publicly portray the young player as a cheat just because he's world champion and he thinks he can (which others can't)? There is no other way to explain his behavior. Nobody walks away because of a lost game. Just because he's world champion, he's allowed to do things that others aren't allowed to do. He thinks he has a special position to even play the judge. Good to know that Carlsen will now determine who is a cheater or not - and who can and can't play. Carlsen is the boss!
Every participant could have done what Carlsen did. But you are absolutely right that there is a difference if HE does it. So what was your point again?
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by Eduard »

It's about a young player being made public as a cheater by a star. Other players shouldn't have. Everyone has the right to play where they want and where not. It would have been okay if Carlsen had decided for himself not to participate in the tournament at all. He could have communicated the reasons to the tournament organization, discreetly to himself. But not the way he did it. That's just bad style, sorry! Even in this Baer tournament that's going on, Carlsen showed his ego and pointed his finger "You're guilty" at Niemann. He could have canceled the tournament, despite everything. However, giving up a game after the first move is something only the world champion can do without facing any consequences.
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AdminX
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Re: Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

Post by AdminX »

Guess we all know what the next issue of your favorite magazine will be about, online or printed version! :wink:
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
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