Carlsen withdrawal after loss to Niemann

[syzygy]

Here is a adult opnion from an insider of professional chess.



I love this guy.

I do not agree that there is 0% possiblity that Magnus would have withdrawn from the tournament if he had beaten Niemann. If Magnus had won but had still been convinced that Niemann was cheating, I believe he would have withdrawn from the tournament anyway, or at least have seriously considered it (-> non-zero possibility).

I also do not think Magnus was lying when he wrote that he had considered withdrawing from the tournament the moment he had been told Niemann would take part.

I do not know the truth about Niemann, but if he is impersonating a 2700 player, that is a very serious matter for the chess sport.

[syzygy]

How often have top players falsely accused people of engine cheating?

When they feel something is not right, and they are not completely alone in this, there may well be a problem.

[chrisw]

How often have top players falsely accused people of engine cheating?

When they feel something is not right, and they are not completely alone in this, there may well be a problem.

It’s arguable/probable that of all the 500(?) or so high rated players with a chance of fame or prize money or some other motive, some unknown number cheat in some way. Presumably more probable online than OTB, but non zero in either case.

It’s also arguable, for sure since Alpha Zero, that the threatened top GMs have this worrying possibility on their minds. At some point then, there’s going to be one or more upsets of strong GMs by newer entrants. What blows this up into a storm? And what doesn’t? Why not accuse or cast suspicion on any of the newer entrants? Well, Hans is the oddball, he’s disrespectful to the GM elite, he appears to keep himself to himself, a loner, seemingly comes from nowhere, he has teenager form, and looks a bit weird. Hans is not one of them.

Cue perfect storm. Could have been anyone, but it was Hans.

[CornfedForever]

It’s arguable/probable that of all the 500(?) or so high rated players with a chance of fame or prize money or some other motive, some unknown number cheat in some way. Presumably more probable online than OTB, but non zero in either case.
Cue perfect storm. Could have been anyone, but it was Hans.

Thieves thrive on capitalism. And top level chess is having big $$ thrown at it.

Be it all the UFO/Paranormal stuff (largely of the past...(?))
Or all those Trump Acolytes who jump on the bandwagon to peddle (whatever) or just because (in either instance) there is a built in quantity of people simply 'willing to believe' and who will throw their money around in furtherance of those beliefs.

<not a political statement, seriously>
<seriously>

[frcha]

There is nothing unusual about the Carlsen withdrawal except that he was the only one with the guts to do it. (and maybe should have done it before not after the game) The other gms also did not want Hans there but did nothing.
Many of the commentators have conveniently forgotten that Hans was ejected from chess.com 3 times! The last time being just a few weeks ago.
So we have the talking heads online making the same arguments as the talking heads in mainstream media do regarding crime - you know like venting anger against a working family that refuses to hire a child molester to babysit their kids! There is no proof that person has committed crime recently only way back in the past so how dare you discriminate?

I sure as hell dont want to play against a player accused of cheating - who does?

[CornfedForever]

There is nothing unusual about the Carlsen withdrawal except that he was the only one with the guts to do it. (and maybe should have done it before not after the game) The other gms also did not want Hans there but did nothing.
Many of the commentators have conveniently forgotten that Hans was ejected from chess.com 3 times! The last time being just a few weeks ago.
So we have the talking heads online making the same arguments as the talking heads in mainstream media do regarding crime - you know like venting anger against a working family that refuses to hire a child molester to babysit their kids! There is no proof that person has committed crime recently only way back in the past so how dare you discriminate?

I sure as hell dont want to play against a player accused of cheating - who does?

The other stuff aside...(if only because you sound like someone who lives in the uber-right wing 'news' world)

EVERY other player, played against Hans, even after Magnus quit and that AFTER they were pretty darn sure why he quit.

Not disagreeing with you...but maybe it's just proof that everyone looks out for themselves...and their wallet. But if another one had 'refused'...maybe that would have been a domino falling.

[Chessqueen]

How often have top players falsely accused people of engine cheating?

When they feel something is not right, and they are not completely alone in this, there may well be a problem.

Sure, the problem is that once in a while any player rated between 100 to 200 rating points below you can play a GREAT game whereas you did NOT, it happens all the times, but they call it UPSET in Chess NOT Cheating. GM Hans also upset GM Aronian and GM Duda but none of them accused him of Cheating
==> A N D

[lkaufman]

How often have top players falsely accused people of engine cheating?

When they feel something is not right, and they are not completely alone in this, there may well be a problem.

It’s arguable/probable that of all the 500(?) or so high rated players with a chance of fame or prize money or some other motive, some unknown number cheat in some way. Presumably more probable online than OTB, but non zero in either case.

It’s also arguable, for sure since Alpha Zero, that the threatened top GMs have this worrying possibility on their minds. At some point then, there’s going to be one or more upsets of strong GMs by newer entrants. What blows this up into a storm? And what doesn’t? Why not accuse or cast suspicion on any of the newer entrants? Well, Hans is the oddball, he’s disrespectful to the GM elite, he appears to keep himself to himself, a loner, seemingly comes from nowhere, he has teenager form, and looks a bit weird. Hans is not one of them.

Cue perfect storm. Could have been anyone, but it was Hans.

Couldn't be just anyone. Had to be someone who had been banned/suspended for online cheating, and who was invited to a top level OTB tournament. There have been some other pretty strong GMs caught cheating online, but perhaps none of them were invited to a top level OTB event recently, so I don't think this shows any singling out of Hans, unless you know of another player who was also banned/suspended for online cheating and invited to a top OTB event. Whether cheating online should result in banning from OTB play is a matter of legitimate debate; clearly Carlsen and some of the other top players think the answer is "yes". Of course the answer may depend on the degree and recentness etc. of the online cheating.

[supersharp77]

How often have top players falsely accused people of engine cheating?

When they feel something is not right, and they are not completely alone in this, there may well be a problem.

It’s arguable/probable that of all the 500(?) or so high rated players with a chance of fame or prize money or some other motive, some unknown number cheat in some way. Presumably more probable online than OTB, but non zero in either case.

It’s also arguable, for sure since Alpha Zero, that the threatened top GMs have this worrying possibility on their minds. At some point then, there’s going to be one or more upsets of strong GMs by newer entrants. What blows this up into a storm? And what doesn’t? Why not accuse or cast suspicion on any of the newer entrants? Well, Hans is the oddball, he’s disrespectful to the GM elite, he appears to keep himself to himself, a loner, seemingly comes from nowhere, he has teenager form, and looks a bit weird. Hans is not one of them.

Cue perfect storm. Could have been anyone, but it was Hans.

Couldn't be just anyone. Had to be someone who had been banned/suspended for online cheating, and who was invited to a top level OTB tournament. There have been some other pretty strong GMs caught cheating online, but perhaps none of them were invited to a top level OTB event recently, so I don't think this shows any singling out of Hans, unless you know of another player who was also banned/suspended for online cheating and invited to a top OTB event. Whether cheating online should result in banning from OTB play is a matter of legitimate debate; clearly Carlsen and some of the other top players think the answer is "yes". Of course the answer may depend on the degree and recentness etc. of the online cheating.

Agreed 100%......Hans Niemann just happened to be in the Wrong Place at the Wrong/Right Time (Depending on your opinion of this matter) The Main Thrust Is to Get a Feel for the "Modern Chess Cheating" ....What Technology They are using.....How They Are doing it......Where they are doing it...And once we can get ahold of the true Scope of this "IceBerg" Get it under Control & Figure Out Who The Culprits are and How much Damage They have done Already...& Try to Limit Future Damage to Our Beloved CHESS....

[chrisw]

How often have top players falsely accused people of engine cheating?

When they feel something is not right, and they are not completely alone in this, there may well be a problem.

It’s arguable/probable that of all the 500(?) or so high rated players with a chance of fame or prize money or some other motive, some unknown number cheat in some way. Presumably more probable online than OTB, but non zero in either case.

It’s also arguable, for sure since Alpha Zero, that the threatened top GMs have this worrying possibility on their minds. At some point then, there’s going to be one or more upsets of strong GMs by newer entrants. What blows this up into a storm? And what doesn’t? Why not accuse or cast suspicion on any of the newer entrants? Well, Hans is the oddball, he’s disrespectful to the GM elite, he appears to keep himself to himself, a loner, seemingly comes from nowhere, he has teenager form, and looks a bit weird. Hans is not one of them.

Cue perfect storm. Could have been anyone, but it was Hans.

Couldn't be just anyone. Had to be someone who had been banned/suspended for online cheating, and who was invited to a top level OTB tournament. There have been some other pretty strong GMs caught cheating online, but perhaps none of them were invited to a top level OTB event recently, so I don't think this shows any singling out of Hans, unless you know of another player who was also banned/suspended for online cheating and invited to a top OTB event. Whether cheating online should result in banning from OTB play is a matter of legitimate debate; clearly Carlsen and some of the other top players think the answer is "yes". Of course the answer may depend on the degree and recentness etc. of the online cheating.

Firouzja was banned from chess.com for cheating aged 11, then allowed back. Difference between Firouzja and Hans is that the former managed to become identified with the in-group, whereas Hans remained an outsider. Peer group pressure is a thing and Hans was the ideal selection for victim. As you know yourself, being a part of the in-group confers certain advantages, your peers went out of their way to clear you, Larry Kaufman, while destroying your partner in Rybka development, Vas Rajlich. Remember the deliberate and unnecessary (?) “Larry Kaufman is squeaky clean” insert? If you’re one of them, you’re safe, if not, well, fearful competitors might strike. So, it could be just anyone, it’s subject to the vagaries of the lead-group, whoever and whatever that is.
What we do know is that chess.com is intimately involved. You work for them, no? They’re busy buying up commentators and chess sites. Chess.com is becoming a monopoly monster and they have all the data on everybody, something they are prepared to use or abuse, their choice to reveal “data” to Magnus, their choice to put out the condemnatory PR letter supposedly based on their data on Hans, their choice to lift or not lift their algorithmic(?) suspensions, their choice whether to like you or not. Maybe Hans displeased them? Maybe Hans declined some offer or deal or other? Monopoly corporations have a strong tendency to misbehave.
Yes, it could be anybody, but Hans was chosen.