Chessqueen wrote: ↑Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:33 pm
I think the difference between our positions is largely that you think Magnus can say/do as he wants (as long as he does not directly say something like: "Hans cheats in OTB chess, therefore I will not play him OTB - or, obviously Online)."
Legally spoken, yes. I think one should be allowed to express his opinion about someone else as long as he doesn't lie or insult other persons. That's how it is handled in my country, and after what I read here, it is probably similar in the U.S. And that is good. Imagine a person cheats in chess, people know that, but can't talk about it, because they have to fear to get sued.
Morally spoken, one has to endure skepticism when he cheated in the past. I'm really surprised that online cheating seems to be tolerated by so much people here.
Yes it is incredible how many here see online cheating as being not a big deal or not the same as OTB cheating. A good chess engine today is about 1000 ELO points stronger than MC ... and really if you think about it ... chess engines tactically are probably 1500 ELO points stronger than the best human. This just makes someone using a chess engine to cheat something that cannot be tolerated or the game of chess is dead as a competitive sport. It is like a marathon runner getting picked up by a car and driven to 100 m from the finish line. I am sure many that are making excuses for Hans KNOW inside that he cheated online and OTB. But for some weird reason are still willing to act like the OTB cheating didn't happen because he was not caught in the act. However the chess games of Hans Nieman are out there and they speak for themselves! ... as Caruana said ... either he is an alien or he is a cheater.
Chessqueen wrote: ↑Tue Oct 25, 2022 8:33 pm
I think the difference between our positions is largely that you think Magnus can say/do as he wants (as long as he does not directly say something like: "Hans cheats in OTB chess, therefore I will not play him OTB - or, obviously Online)."
Legally spoken, yes. I think one should be allowed to express his opinion about someone else as long as he doesn't lie or insult other persons. That's how it is handled in my country, and after what I read here, it is probably similar in the U.S. And that is good. Imagine a person cheats in chess, people know that, but can't talk about it, because they have to fear to get sued.
Morally spoken, one has to endure skepticism when he cheated in the past. I'm really surprised that online cheating seems to be tolerated by so much people here.
Yes it is incredible how many here see online cheating as being not a big deal or not the same as OTB cheating. A good chess engine today is about 1000 ELO points stronger than MC ... and really if you think about it ... chess engines tactically are probably 1500 ELO points stronger than the best human. This just makes someone using a chess engine to cheat something that cannot be tolerated or the game of chess is dead as a competitive sport. It is like a marathon runner getting picked up by a car and driven to 100 m from the finish line. I am sure many that are making excuses for Hans KNOW inside that he cheated online and OTB. But for some weird reason are still willing to act like the OTB cheating didn't happen because he was not caught in the act. However the chess games of Hans Nieman are out there and they speak for themselves! ... as Caruana said ... either he is an alien or he is a cheater.
M ANSARI wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:36 am,,,,,,But for some weird reason are still willing to act like the OTB cheating didn't happen because he was not caught in the act. However the chess games of Hans Nieman are out there and they speak for themselves! ... as Caruana said ... either he is an alien or he is a cheater.
Now that you mention it, he could possibly pass as an alien.
IanKennedy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:40 am
Yes it is incredible how many here see online cheating as being not a big deal or not the same as OTB cheating.
It's incredible that despite Magnus confessing to play multiple times under his friend's accounts "for fun"
and even when playing under his account receiving help by one of the bystanding GMs for at least two moves with existing video proof that is not a big deal. Imagine the same would happen in OTB.
IanKennedy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2022 8:40 am
I am sure many that are making excuses for Hans KNOW inside that he cheated online and OTB.
chess.com report clearly stated that there is no statistical evidence he ever cheated OTB meaning from statistical analysis alone he is no more likely to have cheated as any other top player. Recent chessbase article also dismisses the chess.com claim about the additional "extraordinary" statistics regarding speed of his ELO gain etc as unfounded. Also chess.com report states that the last time he cheated at chess.com was in 2020. So maby those who are "making excuses" understand this and find Han's story that he has learned his lesson about cheating as very likely - which is what all the evidence suggests.
syzygy wrote: ↑Tue Oct 25, 2022 9:42 pm
If Magnus says "I don't like Niemann as a person, and I am not going to play him anymore in the future", then that has an effect on Hans and his ability to play the game, but there is nothing he can do about it.
Similarly if some business decides "We don't like black people as a race and therefore we are not going to serve them" then that has an effect on black's people ability to receive services, but there is nothing they can do about it.
mirek wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2022 11:53 am
and even when playing under his account receiving help by one of the bystanding GMs for at least two moves with existing video proof that is not a big deal. Imagine the same would happen in OTB.
it blows my mind how people even compare that accident to niemann's cheating history.
on one side you have a drunk magnus playing for the lichess titled arena with his friends watching, including GM howell who in a critical position says "you can trap it".
he realized he fucked up (even though he didn't say the move or anything else that could help him find the move) and stays silent to magnus' "how" (which some people who suddenly become lawyers want to use as proof to incriminate him) but he finds the move anyway and proceeds to win the game.
on the other side you have hans who cheated in more than 100 games for money/elo.
it's even funnier when you see danya's reaction (magnus' opponent in that game).
tcusr wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2022 1:39 pm
it blows my mind how people even compare that accident to niemann's cheating history.
You are missing the point, I am not claiming for them to be comparable offenses but I am claiming that online chess has lower standard compared to OTB. I can't imagine anything I am mentioning above (impersonating another player, receiving help from audience) would happen OTB and there would be no consequences.
This is addressed to those who think that online chess is exactly comparable in "seriousness" to OTB chess. It clearly isn't or if it is, then let's have ethical commision against Magnus as well for multitude of his cheating involved violations.
As an aside, I've seen people play more than 100 games online at a sitting. Heck, I am sure I have...probably in my underwear, eating tacos.
The number of settings/instances is going to be more important than the number of games. Nothing implied here...just pointing out a big difference between online and OTB.
mirek wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2022 11:53 am
chess.com report clearly stated that there is no statistical evidence he ever cheated OTB meaning from statistical analysis alone he is no more likely to have cheated as any other top player.
That's not quite correct. They found anomalies in his games and overperformance OTB. Not enough to proof cheating, but it is more "likely" that Hans cheated than other players. They also state clear at the beginning, that their methods are not (yet) suitable to check OTB games.
"Despite these potential suspicions, as shown below in Section VIII, an in-depth review of Hans’ OTB
games using Chess.com’s statistical methods revealed aggregate patterns of play that, while interesting,
are possible for a rising player approaching 2700. In Section IX we present Hans’ top performing events
based on his overperformance in strength and rating. We are prepared to cooperate with FIDE and respect
their role in leading this, and any, future OTB investigations."
mirek wrote: ↑Wed Oct 26, 2022 11:53 am
chess.com report clearly stated that there is no statistical evidence he ever cheated OTB meaning from statistical analysis alone he is no more likely to have cheated as any other top player.
That's not quite correct. They found anomalies in his games and overperformance OTB. Not enough to proof cheating, but it is more "likely" that Hans cheated than other players. They also state clear at the beginning, that their methods are not (yet) suitable to check OTB games.
"Despite these potential suspicions, as shown below in Section VIII, an in-depth review of Hans’ OTB
games using Chess.com’s statistical methods revealed aggregate patterns of play that, while interesting,
are possible for a rising player approaching 2700. In Section IX we present Hans’ top performing events
based on his overperformance in strength and rating. We are prepared to cooperate with FIDE and respect
their role in leading this, and any, future OTB investigations."
I notice you cite the relevant chess.com passage as support for your words of .”…but it is more “likely” than Hans cheated than other players” (OTB).
Yet, the passage you cite only mentions patterns which are but “interesting" and “…possible for a rising player approaching 2700”
Did you happen to notice for the just ended US Championship performance (with its 30 min delay and extensive precautions), Hans Pre Tournament rating was: 2699….and his post tournament ‘Performance rating’ came out to be….2699?.
