Should the CTF subforum be reopened?

[JohnWoe]

Of course. This isn't freemasonry where you can't talk about politics or religion.

[towforce]

Of course. This isn't freemasonry where you can't talk about politics or religion.

Interesting: I actually didn't know that about Freemasonry.

The problem with politics (and religion) is that, for most people, WHO they are willing to listen to is much more important than the quality of the argument.

I'll share two things you'll need to know if you want to change somebody's view about a political issue which many people (and certainly some former members of CTF) aren't aware of:

1. Good politics (like most other forms of warfare) is actually hard work. Basically, in war, you're in a long battle of adaptation against people who want their political views to trump yours, and for their political group to have higher status than your political group.

2. The work required to be "allowed" to have a point of view in a world in which "permission to be heard" is difficult to get:

(a) You will need to listen and fully understand the other person's point of view

(b) You will need to explain their point of view back to them better than they could have explained it themselves

(c) You will then be allowed to introduce an alternative point of view - but be careful to explain in in terms which are meaningful to the other person: cold logic won't give you that

So politics is basically a game that looks easy but which is actually both challenging and time consuming. For me personally, the worst part is that if, after a large sacrifice of time and attention, you finally get some "good" policies enacted, the free riders who never made any effort to persuade anyone will probably be the biggest beneficiaries rather than yourself.

The only real winners in politics are the tiny percentage who get to the top. Everyone else is basically wasting their life. Good people increasingly eschew politics: in Britain, membership of political parties has been in a long term decline since WWII. You'd be personally better off becoming a Freemason!

[smatovic]

Alright, numbers do not lie, this is what we call in Germany a ""Klatsche" or "Watschen" I myself will bury this topic from now on.

--
Srdja

[towforce]

Alright, numbers do not lie, this is what we call in Germany a ""Klatsche" or "Watschen" I myself will bury this topic from now on.

--
Srdja

A masculine man would not stop doing something because others give him a "Watschen" (which Google translates as "slap")!

However, it does look as CTF is not coming back any time soon. In my previous post, I pointed out that "good politics" is difficult and unrewarding. Maybe "good social" is difficult as well - especially when one's preference is to socialise with geeky types who are willing to discuss things thoughtfully and in depth: such people are not naturally good at maintaining relationships. Unless one's interests are very narrow, in which case a specialised forum of some sort is indicated (e.g. this forum), Quora seems to be a good place to meet this urge: it's set up to get you good people providing good answers to questions you want to ask. What's missing is the "old friends" and "people you know" aspect.

[smatovic]

A masculine man would not stop doing something because others give him a "Watschen" (which Google translates as "slap")!
[...]

--
Srdja

[Eelco de Groot]

I think I am not the only who finds this a much more enjoyable prospect to come to read about at the Café Américain today, the frightening world outside will not go away for the forseeable future, we need to get away from it sometimes to come back in larger force, recharged, our matrices reloaded so to speak News about Rebel or Chess System Tal ? And goodbye to Toga, the Toga Developers Bulletin Board from Shaun can finally be put to rest

[hgm]

Alright, numbers do not lie, this is what we call in Germany a ""Klatsche" or "Watschen" I myself will bury this topic from now on.

--
Srdja

A masculine man would not stop doing something because others give him a "Watschen" (which Google translates as "slap")!

However, it does look as CTF is not coming back any time soon. In my previous post, I pointed out that "good politics" is difficult and unrewarding. Maybe "good social" is difficult as well - especially when one's preference is to socialise with geeky types who are willing to discuss things thoughtfully and in depth: such people are not naturally good at maintaining relationships. Unless one's interests are very narrow, in which case a specialised forum of some sort is indicated (e.g. this forum), Quora seems to be a good place to meet this urge: it's set up to get you good people providing good answers to questions you want to ask. What's missing is the "old friends" and "people you know" aspect.

I understood that when CTF was closed, Ed started a forum to act as a replacement. To which he added some computer-chess sections as well. It seems, however, that the CTF equivalent in that forum was also closed, some time ago, and only the chess-related sections plus some science and music remain. It would be enlightening to know what was the reason for that. Are discussions about politics and religion bound to derail?

[towforce]

I understood that when CTF was closed, Ed started a forum to act as a replacement. To which he added some computer-chess sections as well. It seems, however, that the CTF equivalent in that forum was also closed, some time ago, and only the chess-related sections plus some science and music remain.

This is wrong: all the subforums at ProDeo are still open.

Are discussions about politics and religion bound to derail?

Not at all. I've had many decent discussions, and sometimes I've learned valuable things from them. But political discussions do have particular problems:

* when somebody is failing to change other people's minds, they feel that they're not being listened to. Hence my previous post in this thread talking about the work required to be entitled to have an opinion

* too many people want to be the "big man", and prefer alpha-male domination techniques to actual discussion

* good political discussion looks easy - and when lower quality people see this, they join in - but quickly get frustrated when they find the game's not as easy as it looks

* simple tribalism: people feel that their in-group is being attacked, so they aggressively attack the out-group who are probably making good points in reality

[ernest]

This is wrong: all the subforums at ProDeo are still open.

For non-members at least, "CTF" does not appear...

[Ozymandias]

This is wrong: all the subforums at ProDeo are still open.

For non-members at least, "CTF" does not appear...

The easy solution to that being... become a member.

On that note, people defending the official narrative are outnumbered there, so new membership is needed to help "balance" the debate.