The value of the Rook should be 4.8 to 4.9 NOT 5.0

[Chessqueen]

In most ending position specially 2 Knights + Bishop versus Rook, no matter if The Rook is playing the White side or the Black side, in most games the three minors pieces which is equal to 9.0 is superior to the 2 Rooks
[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2023.01.20"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish_23011407_x64_bmi2"]
[Black "Stockfish_23011407_x64_bmi2"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "3525"]
[Time "17:46:07"]
[WhiteElo "3525"]
[TimeControl "180+1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "1nb1k1n1/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R3K2R w KQ - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "149"]


1. d3 d5 2. f3 Nc6 3. Kd2 e5 4. e3 Nge7 5. Rhe1 a5 6. a3 Kd7 7. Rab1 Kd6 8.
b4 Be6 9. Rf1 b6 10. bxa5 Nxa5 11. Rb4 f6 12. e4 Bd7 13. f4 exf4 14. Rxf4
Nac6 15. Ra4 Nd8 16. Rb4 h6 17. g3 b5 18. Rf1 c5 19. Rb2 dxe4 20. dxe4 Nc8
21. Rfb1 Nb6 22. Rxb5 Bxb5 23. Rxb5 Kc6 24. Rb3 Ne6 25. Rb1 Nd4 26. Kd3 Nb5
27. Ra1 Na4 28. h4 Nb2+ 29. Ke2 Kb6 30. h5 Kc6 31. g4 Kd6 32. Kf2 Na4 33.
Ke2 c4 34. Rd1+ Ke7 35. Kf2 Nc5 36. e5 Nxa3 37. exf6+ gxf6 38. Rc1 Ne4+ 39.
Ke3 Nc3 40. Kd2 Nab1+ 41. Ke3 Na3 42. Kd2 Nab5 43. Re1+ Kd7 44. Ra1 Nd5 45.
Ra5 Ndc7 46. Ra4 Nd6 47. Ra5 Kc6 48. Ke3 Kb6 49. Ra1 Kc5 50. Ra7 Ndb5 51.
Rb7 Nd5+ 52. Kf2 Nd4 53. Rh7 Nxc2 54. Rxh6 Nce3 55. Rh8 Nxg4+ 56. Ke1 Kd4
57. h6 f5 58. h7 Ngf6 59. Ke2 c3 60. Kd1 Nxh7 61. Rxh7 Kc4 62. Rf7 Ne3+ 63.
Ke2 c2 64. Kd2 Kd4 65. Rf8 Kd5 66. Rd8+ Ke4 67. Re8+ Kd4 68. Rd8+ Ke5 69.
Ra8 f4 70. Ra5+ Ke4 71. Ra4+ Kf5 72. Ra5+ Ke4 73. Ra4+ Kf5 74. Ra1 Ke4 75.
Ra4+ {3-fold repetition} 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

Or the three minor pieces playing the White side

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2023.01.20"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Dragon-2.6.1-64bit-avx2"]
[Black "Stockfish_23011407_x64_bmi2"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "3525"]
[Time "09:43:16"]
[WhiteElo "3550"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r3k2r/pppppppp/8/8/2P5/8/PP1PPPPP/1NB1K1N1 b kq - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "258"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. ... a6 2. Nc3 f6 3. e4 Rb8 4. d3 b5 5. c5 d6 6. Be3 Kd7 7. Nge2 e5 8. b4
dxc5 9. Bxc5 Ra8 10. a3 a5 11. Kd2 axb4 12. axb4 c6 13. h4 Rhd8 14. Bb6 Rg8
15. Be3 Ra3 16. Kc2 Ra1 17. Nc1 h5 18. N3e2 g5 19. hxg5 fxg5 20. Ng3 Rh8
21. Nf5 g4 22. g3 Ke6 23. Nb3 Ra2+ 24. Kb1 Rha8 25. Nc1 R2a4 26. Bc5 Ra1+
27. Kc2 R1a6 28. Nd6 Rg8 29. Nf5 Rga8 30. Kd2 Ra3 31. Ne3 Rh8 32. Ng2 Re8
33. Kc2 Rd8 34. Ne3 Rh8 35. Nf5 Rha8 36. Ne7 Kf6 37. Kd2 R3a4 38. Nf5 Ke6
39. Ne3 Rh8 40. Ng2 Rd8 41. Nh4 Ra3 42. Kc2 Ra6 43. Kb1 Rd7 44. Kb2 Ra8 45.
Ng2 Ra4 46. Kc2 Ra8 47. Be3 Ra4 48. Bc5 Ra8 49. Nh4 Ra6 50. Be3 Ra3 51. Nb3
Kf7 52. Kb2 Ra8 53. Nc1 Ra4 54. Bc5 Rd8 55. Nf5 Rda8 56. Ne3 Rh8 57. Nb3
Rd8 58. Kc3 Ra3 59. Ng2 Ra2 60. Nc1 Ra3+ 61. Kb2 Ra4 62. Ne1 Rh8 63. Nb3 h4
64. gxh4 Rxh4 65. Na5 Rh6 66. Nc2 Rf6 67. Be3 Ke8 68. Kb3 Kf7 69. Kc3 Ke8
70. Nb3 Rf3 71. Bb6 Rh3 72. Bc5 Kf7 73. Be3 g3 74. fxg3 Rxg3 75. Na5 Ke6
76. Nxc6 Ra2 77. Kb3 Rxc2 78. Kxc2 Rxe3 79. Na7 Re2+ 80. Kb3 Rd2 81. Kc3
Ra2 82. Nxb5 Kd7 83. Kb3 Rd2 84. Kc4 Rc2+ 85. Kd5 Rd2 86. Kc4 Rc2+ 87. Kd5
Rd2 88. d4 exd4 89. Nxd4 Rb2 90. Kc5 Rb1 91. b5 Kc7 92. Ne2 Kd7 93. Nc3 Rc1
94. Kd4 Ke6 95. Na4 Rb1 96. Kc4 Ke5 97. Nc5 Rc1+ 98. Kb4 Kd6 99. Nd3 Rh1
100. Kc3 Kc7 101. Kd4 Rh4 102. Nf2 Rh8 103. e5 Kb6 104. e6 Kxb5 105. Ne4
Kc6 106. Ke5 Ra8 107. Kf6 Rh8 108. Ng5 Rh6+ 109. Kg7 Rh1 110. Nf7 Re1 111.
Kf6 Rf1+ 112. Kg7 Rg1+ 113. Kf8 Re1 114. Nd8+ Kd6 115. Kf7 Rf1+ 116. Ke8
Re1 117. Kf7 Rh1 118. Nb7+ Ke5 119. Nc5 Rf1+ 120. Ke7 Rh1 121. Nd7+ Kf5
122. Nf8 Ke5 123. Ke8 Kd6 124. e7 Re1 125. Ng6 Ke6 126. Nf8+ Kf6 127. Nh7+
Ke5 128. Kd7 Kf5 129. e8=Q Rxe8 130. Kxe8 {Insufficient material} 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

[hgm]

Starting from materially imbalanced positions is a good way to test such things. But of course the result of a single game is meaningless, as it is determined mostly by luck. You would have to do at least a few hundred (non-drawn) games to reduce the luck factor to less than 0.1 Pawn. And if you not use self-play you have to be careful to have each material composition played equally often by both engines, to average out any strength difference.

[chesskobra]

What does 'true value' mean anyway? What quantity do you hope to calculate even if you know the whole game tree?

[Bo Persson]

In most ending position specially 2 Knights + Bishop versus Rook, no matter if The Rook is playing the White side or the Black side, in most games the three minors pieces which is equal to 9.0 is superior to the 2 Rooks

So another option is to have Bishops and Knights at 3.x instead of 3.0. With x big enough, they will be worth more that the rooks.

How do we know the TRUE values?

[Chessqueen]

In most ending position specially 2 Knights + Bishop versus Rook, no matter if The Rook is playing the White side or the Black side, in most games the three minors pieces which is equal to 9.0 is superior to the 2 Rooks

So another option is to have Bishops and Knights at 3.x instead of 3.0. With x big enough, they will be worth more that the rooks.

How do we know the TRUE values?

I came to the conclusion that the suggestion of H.G Muller is the best way to find out the true or best value for chess pieces, since programmers have assigned values to them from recommended top GMs , out of all top GMs Bobby Fischer came closer except that I believe that Rooks value is a little bit too high it should be closer to 4.8 or4.9 at the most. I need lots of positions between 2 Rooks Vs 2Knights + Bishop that I can test it in my spare time.

[Uri Blass]

In most ending position specially 2 Knights + Bishop versus Rook, no matter if The Rook is playing the White side or the Black side, in most games the three minors pieces which is equal to 9.0 is superior to the 2 Rooks

So another option is to have Bishops and Knights at 3.x instead of 3.0. With x big enough, they will be worth more that the rooks.

How do we know the TRUE values?

I came to the conclusion that the suggestion of H.G Muller is the best way to find out the true or best value for chess pieces, since programmers have assigned values to them from recommended top GMs , out of all top GMs Bobby Fischer came closer except that I believe that Rooks value is a little bit too high it should be closer to 4.8 or4.9 at the most. I need lots of positions between 2 Rooks Vs 2Knights + Bishop that I can test it in my spare time.

The value of knight or bishop is usually considered to be more than 3 pawns so there is no problem if the value of rook is 5 pawns.

[Chessqueen]

In most ending position specially 2 Knights + Bishop versus Rook, no matter if The Rook is playing the White side or the Black side, in most games the three minors pieces which is equal to 9.0 is superior to the 2 Rooks

So another option is to have Bishops and Knights at 3.x instead of 3.0. With x big enough, they will be worth more that the rooks.

How do we know the TRUE values?

I came to the conclusion that the suggestion of H.G Muller is the best way to find out the true or best value for chess pieces, since programmers have assigned values to them from recommended top GMs , out of all top GMs Bobby Fischer came closer except that I believe that Rooks value is a little bit too high it should be closer to 4.8 or4.9 at the most. I need lots of positions between 2 Rooks Vs 2Knights + Bishop that I can test it in my spare time.

The value of knight or bishop is usually considered to be more than 3 pawns so there is no problem if the value of rook is 5 pawns.

That is the reason why we need lots of tests, next game the 2 Rooks will play with the White Side

[pgn][Event "Rook value is too high"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2023.01.21"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish_23011407_x64_bmi2"]
[Black "Stockfish_23011407_x64_bmi2"]
[Result "1-0"]
[BlackElo "3525"]
[Time "04:54:39"]
[WhiteElo "3535"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r3k2r/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/1N2KBN1 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "212"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. e4 g5 2. d4 Rg8 3. Nf3 e6 4. Ne5 Ke7 5. Nd2 Raf8 6. Nd3 f5 7. e5 Ra8 8.
Be2 a5 9. c3 d5 10. exd6+ cxd6 11. a4 Rab8 12. Nc4 Rbc8 13. Ne3 Rb8 14. d5
b5 15. dxe6 Kxe6 16. axb5 Rxb5 17. Kd2 Rgb8 18. Kc1 R5b7 19. h3 Ra7 20. Kd2
Rab7 21. Kc2 Ra7 22. Kd2 Rab7 23. Kc2 Ra7 24. Kb1 d5 25. Nc2 Rc7 26. Ka2
Kf6 27. Bf3 Rd8 28. Nd4 Rc4 29. Ne1 Ra4+ 30. Kb1 Rb8 31. Bd1 Ra3 32. Kc2
Ra1 33. Nd3 Rb6 34. Kd2 Rd6 35. Nb3 Ra4 36. Kc2 Rd8 37. Be2 Rc8 38. Bf3 Rd8
39. Bd1 Rc8 40. g3 Ke7 41. Kd2 Rcc4 42. Nbc1 Ra1 43. Ne2 Rc8 44. Nd4 Kf6
45. Bf3 Rd8 46. Kc2 Rd6 47. Nb3 Ra2 48. Ndc1 Ra4 49. Nd4 Ke5 50. Nd3+ Kf6
51. Bd1 Rc4 52. f4 h6 53. h4 gxh4 54. gxh4 Rd8 55. h5 Ra4 56. Kb1 Rc4 57.
Ne5 Rxd4 58. cxd4 Ke6 59. b3 Rb8 60. Kb2 Rg8 61. Ng6 Re8 62. Bc2 Kf6 63.
Ne5 Rg8 64. Nc6 Rg4 65. Nxa5 Rxf4 66. Nc6 Ke6 67. b4 Kd6 68. b5 Rh4 69. Bd1
Rh3 70. Kc2 Ra3 71. Kb2 Rd3 72. Kc2 Ra3 73. Ne5 Ra5 74. Be2 Ra2+ 75. Kd3 f4
76. Nf7+ Ke6 77. Nxh6 Ra3+ 78. Kd2 f3 79. Bf1 Ra1 80. Bh3+ Kf6 81. Ng4+ Kg7
82. Ke3 Ra3+ 83. Kf4 Ra4 84. Bf1 Rxd4+ 85. Kxf3 Rd1 86. Be2 Rd4 87. Ne3 Rb4
88. Nxd5 Rd4 89. Ne7 Kf6 90. Nc6 Rd2 91. Ke3 Rd7 92. Bf3 Kg5 93. Nd4 Re7+
94. Kd3 Re1 95. Kc4 Rc1+ 96. Kd5 Rb1 97. Be2 Kh6 98. Kc5 Ra1 99. b6 Rb1
100. Bb5 Rc1+ 101. Bc4 Rb1 102. Bb3 Rc1+ 103. Bc2 Rg1 104. b7 Rg8 105. Bg6
Rb8 106. Kb6 Rd8 {Black resigns} *[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2023.01.21"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Stockfish_23011407_x64_bmi2"]
[Black "Stockfish_23011407_x64_bmi2"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "3525"]
[Time "06:05:21"]
[WhiteElo "3525"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "1n2kbn1/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/R3K2R w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "258"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. e3 e5 2. g4 Nc6 3. Ke2 d5 4. Rag1 Bd6 5. h4 Nge7 6. h5 Nd8 7. c3 Ne6 8.
g5 Nf5 9. g6 fxg6 10. hxg6 h6 11. Rh5 Ne7 12. b4 a6 13. d3 b6 14. a4 Kd7
15. Rg4 Ng5 16. a5 bxa5 17. bxa5 Ke6 18. Rh1 Kf6 19. Ra4 Kxg6 20. d4 Ne6
21. Rb1 Nc6 22. Raa1 exd4 23. cxd4 Kf7 24. f4 Kg6 25. Kf2 Kf7 26. Kf3 Kf6
27. Kg4 Ned8 28. Kf3 g6 29. Ra2 Ke6 30. Ra4 h5 31. Ra2 Kf6 32. Raa1 Kf5 33.
Ra2 Ne6 34. Rh1 Kf6 35. Raa1 Kf5 36. Ra2 Ne7 37. Rb2 Kf6 38. Ra1 Nc6 39.
Rg2 Bb4 40. Rgg1 Ned8 41. Rgc1 Ke6 42. Rc2 Kd7 43. Rb1 Bd6 44. Ra2 Ke8 45.
Raa1 Kd7 46. Ra2 Ke7 47. Ke2 Ke6 48. Kf3 Kf5 49. Raa1 Ne6 50. Rh1 Ne7 51.
Rhb1 Nc6 52. Rh1 Nb4 53. Ra4 Nd8 54. Rg1 Kf6 55. Rb1 Nbc6 56. Raa1 Ne6 57.
Rf1 Nb4 58. Ra4 Nc6 59. Raa1 Kf7 60. Ke2 Ned8 61. Rfb1 Ke6 62. Kf2 Kd7 63.
Rb2 Ke7 64. Rbb1 Ne6 65. Ke2 Kf6 66. Rh1 Ned8 67. Rhb1 Ne6 68. Rh1 Ned8 69.
Rhb1 Nb4 70. Ra3 Kf5 71. Ra4 Nbc6 72. Kf3 Ne6 73. Rh1 Ne7 74. Ra2 Nd8 75.
Ra4 Kf6 76. Rb1 Ndc6 77. Rh1 Ke6 78. Ke2 Bb4 79. Rha1 Kd7 80. Kf3 h4 81.
Rg1 Bxa5 82. Ra3 Bb6 83. Rxa6 Na5 84. Ra8 Nc4 85. Rf8 c5 86. dxc5 Bxc5 87.
Rg4 Nxe3 88. Rxh4 Nc4 89. Rh2 Bb4 90. Ra8 Nf5 91. Rg8 Ne7 92. Ra8 Na5 93.
Rb2 Nac6 94. Ra6 Bc3 95. Rb7+ Kc8 96. Rb1 Kd7 97. Kg4 Kd6 98. Rb5 Bd2 99.
Rb2 Bc3 100. Rb5 Bd2 101. Rb2 Ba5 102. Rb7 Bd8 103. Rb5 Nf5 104. Rb1 Nh6+
105. Kh3 Nf5 106. Kg4 Kd7 107. Rb7+ Bc7 108. Kg5 Nfe7 109. Rb5 Bd8 110. Kf6
Bc7 111. Ra4 d4 112. Kg5 Kd6 113. Ra1 Bb8 114. Re1 Ba7 115. Kf6 Bc5 116.
Rb7 Kd5 117. Rd7+ Bd6 118. Rg1 Nf5 119. Rxg6 Ke4 120. Ke6 Bxf4 121. Rg4 Ne5
122. Rxf4+ Kxf4 123. Rd5 d3 124. Rxe5 Nd4+ 125. Kd5 Nc2 126. Kd6 d2 127.
Rd5 Nd4 128. Rxd4+ Ke3 129. Rxd2 Kxd2 {Insufficient material} 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

[Chessqueen]

[pgn][Event "Computer chess game"]
[Site "DESKTOP-OFQ3C0P"]
[Date "2023.01.21"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Dragon-2.6.1-64bit-avx2"]
[Black "Stockfish_23011407_x64_bmi2"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[BlackElo "3490"]
[Time "06:41:15"]
[WhiteElo "3525"]
[TimeControl "900+10"]
[SetUp "1"]
[FEN "r3k2r/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/2NBK1N1 w - - 0 1"]
[Termination "normal"]
[PlyCount "156"]
[WhiteType "program"]
[BlackType "program"]

1. d4 e6 2. e4 Rc8 3. Nd3 Ke7 4. Nf3 b6 5. Nd2 Rhg8 6. Bf3 c5 7. dxc5 bxc5
8. b3 d6 9. e5 d5 10. c4 Rgd8 11. cxd5 exd5 12. Nf4 g5 13. Nxd5+ Ke6 14. g3
Rb8 15. Nc3 Kxe5 16. Nc4+ Kf5 17. Bd1 h6 18. Bc2+ Ke6 19. Ne3 h5 20. Ne4 g4
21. Nxc5+ Ke5 22. Nd3+ Kd4 23. Kd2 Ke4 24. Nc4 Rbc8 25. Ke1 Kf5 26. Nf4+
Kg5 27. Ng2 Rc6 28. Nge3 Ra6 29. Bb1 Re8 30. a4 Rc6 31. Ke2 Rb8 32. Bc2
Rcc8 33. Kf1 Rc7 34. Ke1 Rd8 35. Ke2 Re7 36. Kf1 Rc7 37. Kg2 h4 38. Kf1 Rc5
39. Ke2 h3 40. Nb2 f5 41. Nd3 Rc3 42. Kd2 Rc7 43. Ke2 Re8 44. Kd1 Rd7 45.
a5 Re5 46. b4 Re4 47. Kc1 Red4 48. Ne5 Rc7 49. f4+ Kf6 50. b5 Rc3 51. Nd1
Ra3 52. Nc6 Ra1+ 53. Kb2 Raxd1 54. Bxd1 Rd2+ 55. Ka3 Rxd1 56. b6 axb6 57.
axb6 Ra1+ 58. Kb4 Rh1 59. Kb5 Rxh2 60. b7 Rb2+ 61. Nb4 h2 62. b8=Q Rxb4+
63. Kxb4 h1=Q 64. Qf8+ Ke6 65. Qe8+ Kf6 66. Qf8+ Ke6 67. Qe8+ Kd6 68. Qb8+
Kd7 69. Qb5+ Kc7 70. Qa5+ Kb7 71. Qe5 Qf3 72. Qb5+ Kc7 73. Qc5+ Kb7 74.
Qb5+ Kc7 75. Qc5+ Kb8 76. Qb6+ Kc8 77. Qa6+ Kd7 78. Qb5+ Kc7 {3-fold
repetition} 1/2-1/2[/pgn]