Rebel 16.2: Impressive!

[carldaman]

Thanks for the reply, Chris. I downloaded the .exe's from github - the time stamp is 6/29 1:39PM.
I can't rule out I'm doing something wrong, but I've tried everything suggested on 2 different 4 core systems.

Not a huge deal, the main thing is I'm thankful you've released a new CSTal - I had bought versions 1 (DOS) and 2 (Windows), which still runs(!)
back in the day, so this is a minor nuisance.

[chrisw]

Thanks for the reply, Chris. I downloaded the .exe's from github - the time stamp is 6/29 1:39PM.
I can't rule out I'm doing something wrong, but I've tried everything suggested on 2 different 4 core systems.

Not a huge deal, the main thing is I'm thankful you've released a new CSTal - I had bought versions 1 (DOS) and 2 (Windows), which still runs(!)
back in the day, so this is a minor nuisance.

did you try double clicking the exe and typing directly into the DOS Window?


On my laptop right now ....
download from github
extract from the zip
double click Chess-System-Tal-2.00-v21-E1019-Elo.opt-avx2.exe

info string Chess-System-Tal-2.00
info string Release version
info string (C) Chris Whittington 2003-2023
info string NNUE development Ed Schroeder 2023
info string ==================================

mem

info string Hash=256 Mb
info string Globals=199 Kb
info string Threads=1
info string Cores=6


Voila! 6 cores which is what the laptop has

[carldaman]

Yes, I had, and it acknowledged the existing 4 cores.

[chrisw]

Yes, I had, and it acknowledged the existing 4 cores.

SO where does the idea that it only uses 2 cores come from?

[carldaman]

From the Resource Monitor, and also Arena states it as well.

The Arena messages are a little contradictory, though. The instability warning is given as well as the limiting of threads to 2 cores.
However, the Resource Monitor shows only half the cores in use.

[chrisw]

From the Resource Monitor, and also Arena states it as well.

The Arena messages are a little contradictory, though. The instability warning is given as well as the limiting of threads to 2 cores.
However, the Resource Monitor shows only half the cores in use.

Ah, I think I might have worked this out. It's a case of Arena trying to be too clever and failing (not for the first time)

At engine start, CSTal sends in response to the UCI request the list of user options including min max and default values. Including cores
For your PC, default cores = 4 divide by 2 = 2. I suspect Arena then sets an internal variable (of Arena) saying cores=2.

Then you tell it you have 4 cores, and try to give it 4 threads. Arena, again trying to be too clever, misinterprets threads and cores and limits your 4 thread request to 2. So you have two threads only.

Apart from trying to second guess Arena's attempts to control everything, there's nothing I can do. Use a more sensible GUI.

[peter]

From the Resource Monitor, and also Arena states it as well.

The Arena messages are a little contradictory, though. The instability warning is given as well as the limiting of threads to 2 cores.
However, the Resource Monitor shows only half the cores in use.

Sorry for not having controlled with Task- Manager, seems you're right as for difference between Arena- output and CPU- performance. Didn't give much focus on Arena letting play CSTal mainly in Shredder GUI, just saw that Arena did react console-like as for the output at start-up and was confident too soon, my fault.

Here's what I get from Arena 3.5.1 after loading CSTal2 with RelaxThreadLimit true (which seems to work with your Arena- installation too as for recognition of the command obviously, if you get the instability- warning too) :

Chess-System-Tal-2.00-v21-E1162-130-EAS.opt-avx2:
Chess-System-Tal-2.00
Release version
(C) Chris Whittington 2003-2023
NNUE development Ed Schroeder 2023
==================================
Chess-System-Tal-2.00-v21-E1162-130-EAS.opt-avx2 von id author Chris Whittington (C) 2003-2023, USA
set Hash to 1024MB
Hash table set to 1024 MB
set Threads to 16
limiting Threads to 8 cores
set RelaxThreadLimit to value true
Instability Warning - at your own risk

Yet only 8 threads (not cores!) are really used as for Task- Manager performance (34-36%).

In console- mode even if there's similiar output

setoption name RelaxThreadLimit value true
info string set RelaxThreadLimit to value true
info string Instability Warning - at your own risk
setoption name Threads value 16
info string set Threads to 16

16 threads (with hyperthreading on) are used indeed (62% CPU- performance in Task-Manager).

In Shredder 13- GUI with Ed's new version called Rebel EAS:

Chess-System-Tal-2.00
Release version
(C) Chris Whittington 2003-2023
NNUE development Ed Schroeder 2023
==================================
set Hash to 8192MB
Hash table set to 8192 MB
set Ponder to value true
set RelaxThreadLimit to value true
Instability Warning - at your own risk
set Threads to 16
book set to books.bin
set Bookdepth to 0
Engine: Chess-System-Tal-2.00R (8192 MB)
von Chris Whittington (C) 2003-2023

There in .eng-file of the RebelEAS- installation of Shredder- GUI I added

RelaxThreadLimit=true

In this one Shredder 13- GUI 62% of CPU- performance is shown with my 5950 Ryzen 16 cores, hyperthreading set on, regards

[chrisw]

From the Resource Monitor, and also Arena states it as well.

The Arena messages are a little contradictory, though. The instability warning is given as well as the limiting of threads to 2 cores.
However, the Resource Monitor shows only half the cores in use.

Sorry for not having controlled with Task- Manager, seems you're right as for difference between Arena- output and CPU- performance. Didn't give much focus on Arena letting play CSTal mainly in Shredder GUI, just saw that Arena did react console-like as for the output at start-up and was confident too soon, my fault.

Here's what I get from Arena 3.5.1 after loading CSTal2 with RelaxThreadLimit true (which seems to work with your Arena- installation too as for recognition of the command obviously, if you get the instability- warning too) :

Chess-System-Tal-2.00-v21-E1162-130-EAS.opt-avx2:
Chess-System-Tal-2.00
Release version
(C) Chris Whittington 2003-2023
NNUE development Ed Schroeder 2023
==================================
Chess-System-Tal-2.00-v21-E1162-130-EAS.opt-avx2 von id author Chris Whittington (C) 2003-2023, USA
set Hash to 1024MB
Hash table set to 1024 MB
set Threads to 16
limiting Threads to 8 cores
set RelaxThreadLimit to value true
Instability Warning - at your own risk

Of course, at this point, you sent it a set Threads 16 again, did you?


Yet only 8 cores are really used as for Task- Manager performance (34-36%).

In console- mode even if there's similiar output

setoption name RelaxThreadLimit value true
info string set RelaxThreadLimit to value true
info string Instability Warning - at your own risk
setoption name Threads value 16
info string set Threads to 16

16 threads are used indeed (62% CPU- performance in Task-Manager).

In Shredder 13- GUI with Ed's new version called Rebel EAS:

Chess-System-Tal-2.00
Release version
(C) Chris Whittington 2003-2023
NNUE development Ed Schroeder 2023
==================================
set Hash to 8192MB
Hash table set to 8192 MB
set Ponder to value true
set RelaxThreadLimit to value true
Instability Warning - at your own risk
set Threads to 16
book set to books.bin
set Bookdepth to 0
Engine: Chess-System-Tal-2.00R (8192 MB)
von Chris Whittington (C) 2003-2023

There in .eng-file of the RebelEAS- installation of Shredder- GUI I added

RelaxThreadLimit=true

In this one Shredder 13- GUI 62% of CPU- performance is shown with my 5950 Ryzen 16 cores, hyperthreading set on, regards

[peter]

From the Resource Monitor, and also Arena states it as well.

The Arena messages are a little contradictory, though. The instability warning is given as well as the limiting of threads to 2 cores.
However, the Resource Monitor shows only half the cores in use.

Sorry for not having controlled with Task- Manager, seems you're right as for difference between Arena- output and CPU- performance. Didn't give much focus on Arena letting play CSTal mainly in Shredder GUI, just saw that Arena did react console-like as for the output at start-up and was confident too soon, my fault.

Here's what I get from Arena 3.5.1 after loading CSTal2 with RelaxThreadLimit true (which seems to work with your Arena- installation too as for recognition of the command obviously, if you get the instability- warning too) :

Chess-System-Tal-2.00-v21-E1162-130-EAS.opt-avx2:
Chess-System-Tal-2.00
Release version
(C) Chris Whittington 2003-2023
NNUE development Ed Schroeder 2023
==================================
Chess-System-Tal-2.00-v21-E1162-130-EAS.opt-avx2 von id author Chris Whittington (C) 2003-2023, USA
set Hash to 1024MB
Hash table set to 1024 MB
set Threads to 16
limiting Threads to 8 cores
set RelaxThreadLimit to value true
Instability Warning - at your own risk

Of course, at this point, you sent it a set Threads 16 again, did you?


Yet only 8 cores are really used as for Task- Manager performance (34-36%).

In console- mode even if there's similiar output

setoption name RelaxThreadLimit value true
info string set RelaxThreadLimit to value true
info string Instability Warning - at your own risk
setoption name Threads value 16
info string set Threads to 16

16 threads are used indeed (62% CPU- performance in Task-Manager).

In Shredder 13- GUI with Ed's new version called Rebel EAS:

Chess-System-Tal-2.00
Release version
(C) Chris Whittington 2003-2023
NNUE development Ed Schroeder 2023
==================================
set Hash to 8192MB
Hash table set to 8192 MB
set Ponder to value true
set RelaxThreadLimit to value true
Instability Warning - at your own risk
set Threads to 16
book set to books.bin
set Bookdepth to 0
Engine: Chess-System-Tal-2.00R (8192 MB)
von Chris Whittington (C) 2003-2023

There in .eng-file of the RebelEAS- installation of Shredder- GUI I added

RelaxThreadLimit=true

In this one Shredder 13- GUI 62% of CPU- performance is shown with my 5950 Ryzen 16 cores, hyperthreading set on, regards

Edited the text you quoted still while you already answered in red colour, to make clear even better, that I did set to 16 threads indeed, but only 8 are used by engine installed in Arena 3.5.1, even if RelaxThreadLimit true seemed to be excepted by the GUI .Engine's GUI- output about limiting to 8 cores is the same you get in console, but there 16 threads are possible to be used, as well as in Shredder- GUI, in Arena it only seems as if, yet "threads" and "cores" are mistaken by engine or by GUI obviously.

[peter]

Edited the text you quoted still while you already answered in red colour, to make clear even better, that I did set to 16 threads indeed, but only 8 are used by engine installed in Arena 3.5.1, even if RelaxThreadLimit true seemed to be excepted by the GUI .Engine's GUI- output about limiting to 8 cores is the same you get in console, but there 16 threads are possible to be used, as well as in Shredder- GUI, in Arena it only seems as if, yet "threads" and "cores" are mistaken by engine or by GUI obviously.

Edit- time over.
Indeed with configuring the engine's UCI- parameters once again after loading the stored setting (16 threads, RelaxThreadLimit true) by opening GUI's options and confirming them with OK), 16 threads (62% in Task-Manager) then are yet really used.
That did work three times now with GUI- restart, but only, if you don't let engine run before reopening UCI- options, if it's started in analyse- mode before you reconfigure it, you have to unload and reload the engine again, before you reconfigure its UCI- parameters. Otherwise only 8 threads are used again, if 16 are set (and 32 should be possible)