Super Tournament XXXVII

[Krzysztof Grzelak]

Here you are talking about making unbalanced human openings based on game results, something which has already been done.

The first book I have to Graham for this tourney was same idea, only using comp-comp games and with a high eval cull (0.70). This did no better than a random book for decreasing draw rate.

To lower the draw rate, one MUST not cull high evals, one must cull low evals (out of book).
Alternatively, no culling of high nondrawrate from results, culling of lownondrawrate.

And is the book fair to all chess engines, or only to the strongest ones.

[chrisw]

Here you are talking about making unbalanced human openings based on game results, something which has already been done.

The first book I have to Graham for this tourney was same idea, only using comp-comp games and with a high eval cull (0.70). This did no better than a random book for decreasing draw rate.

To lower the draw rate, one MUST not cull high evals, one must cull low evals (out of book).
Alternatively, no culling of high nondrawrate from results, culling of lownondrawrate.

And is the book fair to all chess engines, or only to the strongest ones.

How can any book be unfair, if it is used back-to-back when testing?

[chrisw]

Very clear to me, and will be to Graham too.

Having run well over a million games at this time control (most using ChessGUI), I find it quite disrespectful to have it insinuated that I don't understand the settings I use.

Maybe so and I am happy to withdraw that, but you did not answer my question and explain the 8 settings you use for game adjudication.

It's clear this "discussion" is going nowhere. Graham is just plain wrong, but he has a veto. I will abandon my goodwill attempts to generate for him a lowdrawrate book, it's not possible under the restrictions he is clinging to improve drawrate. Shame, several of us have tried and got nowhere.

[Graham Banks]

Very clear to me, and will be to Graham too.

Having run well over a million games at this time control (most using ChessGUI), I find it quite disrespectful to have it insinuated that I don't understand the settings I use.

Maybe so and I am happy to withdraw that, but you did not answer my question and explain the 8 settings you use for game adjudication.

The GUI will not adjudicate a game as drawn until it is over 60 moves in length, and the last 10 moves for both sides were below the 0.80 threshold.
Of course, this doesn't apply where any 3-fold repetitions or tablebases adjudications happen earlier.

The tablebases adjudication only kicks in once there are 5 pieces left on the board (at present), or when it sees a mate either 50 or less than 50 moves away.

A game is adjudicated as lost by an engine once there are four consecutive moves giving a 4.75 or higher disadvantage for it.

50 move draws are not ignored.

There is no minimum game length set.

[Graham Banks]

Very clear to me, and will be to Graham too.

Having run well over a million games at this time control (most using ChessGUI), I find it quite disrespectful to have it insinuated that I don't understand the settings I use.

Maybe so and I am happy to withdraw that, but you did not answer my question and explain the 8 settings you use for game adjudication.

It's clear this "discussion" is going nowhere. Graham is just plain wrong, but he has a veto. I will abandon my goodwill attempts to generate for him a lowdrawrate book, it's not possible under the restrictions he is clinging to improve draw rate. Shame, several of us have tried and got nowhere.

I do appreciate it that you tried to make some opening books within the parameters I gave, and you'll be pleased to know that those efforts have been successful with engines outside the top group.

I will continue to try and add to my Active2023 book, which meets my criteria, and produced a 72% draw rate in the previous tournament that I ran with the top group.

Unfortunately, there is no getting over the fact that Stockfish and Dragon are a decent bit stronger than the others, so it is those two picking up the most wins.

[Graham Banks]

For what it's worth, once I stop running tournaments on the i7-4770k towards the end of September, tournaments will then be run on the 5950x with incremental time controls and 6 piece tablebases.

However, there will not be a new rating list.
The 40/15 list will become 40/15 (or 15m10s), although on the 5950x the time control is likely to be 12m10s.

The draw adjudication score will be lowered as well, possibly to 10cp or 15cp for 10 consecutive moves rather than 0.80cp used at present.

[Rebel]

Very clear to me, and will be to Graham too.

Having run well over a million games at this time control (most using ChessGUI), I find it quite disrespectful to have it insinuated that I don't understand the settings I use.

Maybe so and I am happy to withdraw that, but you did not answer my question and explain the 8 settings you use for game adjudication.

It is 3 settings not 8, look at my post and you'll understand what his screenshot is saying.

Then maybe you can explain it to me, I never used ChessGUI.

[Rebel]

Very clear to me, and will be to Graham too.

Having run well over a million games at this time control (most using ChessGUI), I find it quite disrespectful to have it insinuated that I don't understand the settings I use.

Maybe so and I am happy to withdraw that, but you did not answer my question and explain the 8 settings you use for game adjudication.

The GUI will not adjudicate a game as drawn until it is over 60 moves in length, and the last 10 moves for both sides were below the 0.80 threshold.
Of course, this doesn't apply where any 3-fold repetitions or tablebases adjudications happen earlier.

The tablebases adjudication only kicks in once there are 5 pieces left on the board (at present), or when it sees a mate either 50 or less than 50 moves away.

A game is adjudicated as lost by an engine once there are four consecutive moves giving a 4.75 or higher disadvantage for it.

50 move draws are not ignored.

There is no minimum game length set.

Aha, thanks, unpleasant remark taken back.

Not that I agree with the settings

Maybe in a next post, dinner is served here.

[Graham Banks]

Very clear to me, and will be to Graham too.

Having run well over a million games at this time control (most using ChessGUI), I find it quite disrespectful to have it insinuated that I don't understand the settings I use.

Maybe so and I am happy to withdraw that, but you did not answer my question and explain the 8 settings you use for game adjudication.

The GUI will not adjudicate a game as drawn until it is over 60 moves in length, and the last 10 moves for both sides were below the 0.80 threshold.
Of course, this doesn't apply where any 3-fold repetitions or tablebases adjudications happen earlier.

The tablebases adjudication only kicks in once there are 5 pieces left on the board (at present), or when it sees a mate either 50 or less than 50 moves away.

A game is adjudicated as lost by an engine once there are four consecutive moves giving a 4.75 or higher disadvantage for it.

50 move draws are not ignored.

There is no minimum game length set.

Aha, thanks, unpleasant remark taken back.

Not that I agree with the settings

Maybe in a next post, dinner is served here.

[Rebel]

As promised my comments.

[The GUI will not adjudicate a game as drawn until it is over 60 moves in length, and the last 10 moves for both sides were below the 0.80 threshold. Of course, this doesn't apply where any 3-fold repetitions or tablebases adjudications happen earlier.

Since the 90's I use 160 moves and one pawn. Quite a difference.

The tablebases adjudication only kicks in once there are 5 pieces left on the board (at present), or when it sees a mate either 50 or less than 50 moves away.

This will exclude positions like 1) the bad bishop ending, 2) how to mate the KBNK, 3) how to catch the knight in KBBKN, 4) how to catch the rook in KQKR endings, 5) recognize draw or win in certain KQKP endings where the pawn is about to promote, 6) KRKN draw or win. Especially [1] relative happens frequently and is a though cookie for NNUE engines, I still have to fix BTW.

A game is adjudicated as lost by an engine once there are four consecutive moves giving a 4.75 or higher disadvantage for it.

In the 90's I used 5.00, with nowadays high (NNUE) scores I use 10 pawns.

50 move draws are not ignored.

There is no minimum game length set.

Naturally.