Interesting podcast with Kramnik and Caruana about rampant online cheating on Chess.com

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M ANSARI
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Interesting podcast with Kramnik and Caruana about rampant online cheating on Chess.com

Post by M ANSARI »

Kramnik seems to have gone on a mission to combat online cheating. Very interesting read and things seem to be a lot worse than anyone is admitting. He claims it is higher than 20% of online games are using computer assistance and presents some interesting data.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng3lTBAi4Ps
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Re: Interesting podcast with Kramnik and Caruana about rampant online cheating on Chess.com

Post by AdminX »

Thanks for sharing, I am watching it now. It looks interesting. :wink:
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Re: Interesting podcast with Kramnik and Caruana about rampant online cheating on Chess.com

Post by AdminX »

Makes me wonder if it is just mental decline, or just more cheaters online. I am sure both are true when it comes to my games losses online. I wonder can A.I. do a better job at weeding out cheaters / bots? Maybe I should just go back to DGT with my Pi and forget online chess period. :?: Hmm ...
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
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Re: Interesting podcast with Kramnik and Caruana about rampant online cheating on Chess.com

Post by AdminX »

Maybe LiChess and Chess.com should add a Blacklist option that could be enabled by all members if they choose to enable it. The list could be maintained by the service providers and as cheaters are detected, those accounts could be added to the list. :idea: Just a thought of course.
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Re: Interesting podcast with Kramnik and Caruana about rampant online cheating on Chess.com

Post by M ANSARI »

There are several cheaters that only cheat against players they think eyes will not be on. I am expecting that a lot of players playing against Kramnik now will all of a sudden play weaker. Almost every day I get a message that I have points back because a certain person was cheating against you. I am guessing that Chess.com only flags 1% of cheaters .... and only when they do it really obviously. I am sure an AI algo can be made to weed out cheaters ... but then again there will be an AI that will cheat using AI (already available and many are using it).

With black lists, I agree is a good idea. But what really pisses me off is that Chess.com will not let anyone know they flagged someone for cheating. And that person will be reinstated as if nothing happened. I think a good idea is to have a color coding system for a player ... red is a high probability that the person is cheating. Orange is a little less ... green is someone who has no suspicious play. If you ever get flagged for cheating you get a red color even if you are reinstated. This gives the opportunity for honest players to request to only play with green players.

The statistics that Kramnik puts up is very compelling. There is a huge difference in quality of play by many of the top rated online players when they play online and when they play live. Of course you can factor in mouse play and low latency connection ... but those issues were factored in. The top know players like Caruana and Magnus and Hikaru, Nepo etc... they all scored similar online and over the board.
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Re: Interesting podcast with Kramnik and Caruana about rampant online cheating on Chess.com

Post by reflectionofpower »

AdminX wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:17 pm Makes me wonder if it is just mental decline, or just more cheaters online. I am sure both are true when it comes to my games losses online. I wonder can A.I. do a better job at weeding out cheaters / bots? Maybe I should just go back to DGT with my Pi and forget online chess period. :?: Hmm ...

That's a great idea.
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Re: Interesting podcast with Kramnik and Caruana about rampant online cheating on Chess.com

Post by AdminX »

reflectionofpower wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 12:26 pm
AdminX wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:17 pm Makes me wonder if it is just mental decline, or just more cheaters online. I am sure both are true when it comes to my games losses online. I wonder can A.I. do a better job at weeding out cheaters / bots? Maybe I should just go back to DGT with my Pi and forget online chess period. :?: Hmm ...

That's a great idea.
Of course it is ... :wink: Better to lose to the machine you know than the one you don't know! :lol:
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
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Re: Interesting podcast with Kramnik and Caruana about rampant online cheating on Chess.com

Post by CornfedForever »

AdminX wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 12:38 pm
reflectionofpower wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 12:26 pm
AdminX wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:17 pm Makes me wonder if it is just mental decline, or just more cheaters online. I am sure both are true when it comes to my games losses online. I wonder can A.I. do a better job at weeding out cheaters / bots? Maybe I should just go back to DGT with my Pi and forget online chess period. :?: Hmm ...

That's a great idea.
Of course it is ... :wink: Better to lose to the machine you know than the one you don't know! :lol:
Of course, against humans perhaps 99% (guess) of those games are actually going to be against humans not cheating and only 1% (guess) with engine help....and the other way it's 100% engine.

I watched as Benjamin Bok commented on this video in his stream and found it troubling...as regards Kramnik though.

Yes, cheating happens. When I play rated games on chess.com....I may play 100 games at 3/0 and perhaps 1 or 2 at most end up getting flagged within a few days as having been against cheaters. They do not always win those games....perhaps they did not cheat then (or did so in part of the game) or just did in games against others...but the people have been flagged with 'fair play' violations for all games.

Concerning money games like Titled Tuesday...one fairly obvious 'solution' (there should be more) is to make titled players have 'skin in the game' and pay for their membership. Perhaps it's $$ held in escrow that they get back at the end of each year provided they have not been tagged with 'fair play' violations? It needs to be enough to dissuade someone however. Also, hold any payouts for a sufficient time to even better look into the possibility that someone cheated...which they may already do. Titled Tuesday is 'free money' for whomever can get it...some are going to be tempted to get it by cheating.

FWIW….I had an ‘altercation’ with a longtime OTB opponent recently (who has really gone over the deep end with – non chess – conspiracy theories) where he exhibited ….well, since I am no expert in mental pathologies, lets just say Kramnik’s laying out of his case reminded me of that encounter and leave it at that.

I posted here elsewhere. I saw where Hans Neimann beat Kramnik on the black side of a Berlin in a chess.com game (Kramnik…just overlooking a late tactic mostly). Kramnik appears to challenge (or accepts one) Hans to a rematch….then intentionally allows the ‘Scholars Mate’…to which Hans, realizing he is being trolled, refuses and I believe resigns rather than play on.

I trust chess.com’s cheat detection far more than I trust Kramnik as of yet unpublished accusations. They are the experts and close many an account daily. Anyone who automatically calls Kramnik an 'expert' in chess cheating is likely falling into the appeal to authority fallacy. Of course I would like to see his numbers all the same.
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Re: Interesting podcast with Kramnik and Caruana about rampant online cheating on Chess.com

Post by AdminX »

CornfedForever wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 4:19 pm
AdminX wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 12:38 pm
reflectionofpower wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 12:26 pm
AdminX wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:17 pm Makes me wonder if it is just mental decline, or just more cheaters online. I am sure both are true when it comes to my games losses online. I wonder can A.I. do a better job at weeding out cheaters / bots? Maybe I should just go back to DGT with my Pi and forget online chess period. :?: Hmm ...

That's a great idea.
Of course it is ... :wink: Better to lose to the machine you know than the one you don't know! :lol:
Concerning money games like Titled Tuesday...one fairly obvious 'solution' (there should be more) is to make titled players have 'skin in the game' and pay for their membership. Perhaps it's $$ held in escrow that they get back at the end of each year provided they have not been tagged with 'fair play' violations? It needs to be enough to dissuade someone however. Also, hold any payouts for a sufficient time to even better look into the possibility that someone cheated...which they may already do. Titled Tuesday is 'free money' for whomever can get it...some are going to be tempted to get it by cheating.
I think the 'Skin in the Game' approach could help a little also. Would be nice if there were designated locations over the globe where they could still play online in a human monitored environments, however there goes the convenience of online play.
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
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Re: Interesting podcast with Kramnik and Caruana about rampant online cheating on Chess.com

Post by AdminX »

I happened upon this video today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYgUp9AGo5k
"Good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions."
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