Latvian Lacerated

[Werewolf]

Does anyone feel they can defend the Latvian to get a draw? I'm half-way to showing this is lost.

Apologies if this is old news, but the wiki article calls it "dubious", but not "lost".

If anyone wants to play black:

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 f5
3.Ne5 your move.

[Jouni]

Chessdb thinks this is worse than Grob. So definitely 0-1. It thinks best reply is 3. -Nf6 .

[Werewolf]

Chessdb thinks this is worse than Grob. So definitely 0-1. It thinks best reply is 3. -Nf6 .

Did you mean definitely 1-0 ?

[Jouni]

Yes sorry. All my testgames ended 1-0. In Grob there are still some draws.

[Peter Berger]

Does anyone feel they can defend the Latvian to get a draw? I'm half-way to showing this is lost.

Apologies if this is old news, but the wiki article calls it "dubious", but not "lost".

If anyone wants to play black:

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 f5
3.Ne5 your move.

I don’t, the Latvian is busted IMHO. Given that some people think everything is a draw, this is a good point to start though.
During recent months I have spent some time giving some other openings a deeper look after a long break.
Here are two of my more surprising finds:
1. E4 e5 2. Nf3 nc6 3. C3
1. d4 Nf6 2. C4 e6 3. F3
I was absolutely sure that both of these should be a draw, as white didn’t do that bad. I couldn’t confirm it though – I didn’t find a convincing way for white to equalize.

[Ajedrecista]

Hello:

Does anyone feel they can defend the Latvian to get a draw? I'm half-way to showing this is lost.

Apologies if this is old news, but the wiki article calls it "dubious", but not "lost".

If anyone wants to play black:

1.e4 e5
2.Nf3 f5
3.Ne5 your move.

I do not feel that good to try to draw the weak side of the Latvian Gambit, though I have always found interesting this defence in the same sense than you: trying to find forced lines to 1—0 or ½—½. The first example I found on this defence is Polerio (0—1) Di Bona da Cutri; Rome, 1590.

Given the nature of the thread, it shall be moved to Tournaments and Matches subforum.

The Fifth Edition (2006) of the Volume C of the Encyclopedia of Chess Openings gives some lines under ECO C40, most of them evaluated as 'white stands slightly better' and 'white has the upper hand'.

Few lines are evaluated there as 'Unclear' (note 2 of C40). This one does not feature your proposed and much logical 3. Nxe5:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nc3 fxe4 4. Nxe5 Nf6 5. Bc4 Qe7 6. Ng4 c6 7. Nxf6+ gxf6 (F. Müller — A. Jurgenson; correspondence, 1990).

There are other lines that are extended to many moves, which I find very funny, bearing in mind that this is ECO (openings) and not a record of games until the last move. For example the note 6 of C40, which also does not feature 3. Nxe5:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Bc4 fxe4 4. Nxe5 d5 5. Qh5+ g6 6. Nxg6 hxg6 7. Qxg6+ Kd7 8. Bxd5 Nf6 9. Nc3 Qe7 10. b3 Rh6 11. Qf7 Qxf7 12. Bxf7 Nc6 13. Bb2 Bd6 14. O-O-O Ne5 15. Bd5 Nxd5 16. Nxd5 Ng4 17. Rde1 Nxf2 18. Rhf1 Rxh2 19. Rxf2 Bg3 20. Rf7+ Ke6? 21. Rf6+ Kxd5 22. c4+ Kc5 23. Rxe4 c6 24. Bd4+ Kb4 25. Bc3+ Ka3 26. c5 b5 27. cxb6/e.p. axb6 28. Kc2! Rh1 29. Rf8 b5 30. Ree8 Bf5+ 31. d3 1—0 (P.Alloin — K. Grivainis; correspondence, 1983).
You will find this game as not very accurate, but it was curious to find 61 plies at ECO of an unusual defence.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Nf6 is not even considered! Only 3. ... Qf6 (mainline) and 3. ... Nc6 (note 7 of C40) after 3. Nxe5. I found a line evaluated as 'Unclear' after 3. Nxe5 (note 9 of C40):
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5 3. Nxe5 Qf6 4. d4 d6 5. Nc4 fxe4 6. Nc3 Qg6 7. Ne3 Nf6 8. Bc4 c6 9. d5 Be7 10. a4 Nbd7 11. a5 Ne5 12. Be2 O-O (Fischer — Pupols; USA, 1955).
You will find flaws again, of course.

Please take in mind that this volume of ECO was published in 2006 and engines are nowadays much stronger than then.

I am paying attention to what is posted on this topic.

Regards from Spain.

Ajedrecista.

[Graham Banks]

The Grob and the Latvian are a waste of time.

[Eelco de Groot]

The opening appears more playable for Black in the "Eight Knights Variation" of Chess (as we know it). And totally unexplored, until now

[pgn][Event ""] [Site ""] [Date ""] [Round ""] [White ""] [Black ""] [Result ""] [FEN "rnbqkbnr/pnppppnp/8/8/8/8/PNPPPPNP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"] [Setup "1"] 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 f5[/pgn]
[d]rnbqkbnr/pnpp2np/8/4pp2/4P3/5N2/PNPP1PNP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq f6 0 3
(Thanks to ChessX that accepts the position for analysis!)

Rebel EAS:

+1.41 [+] [*] 3. Nxe5 fxe4 4. d4 Nf6 5. Be2 c6 6. O-O d6 7. Ng4 Bxg4 8. Bxg4 d5 9. Bh3 Bb4 10. f3 O-O 11. fxe4 Nxe4 12. Nd3 Rxf1+ 13. Qxf1 Ba5 14. Ne5 Nbd6 15. Kh1 Qe8 16. Bf4 Nf7 17. Nf3 Nd7 18. Nbd2 Bxd2 19. Nxd2 Nfg5 (depth 30, 0:03:10)

+1.10 [+] [*] 3. Nxe5 fxe4 4. d4 c6 5. Be2 Nf6 6. O-O d6 7. Ng4 Bxg4 8. Bxg4 d5 9. Bh3 Bd6 10. Kh1 O-O 11. c4 Kh8 12. Nc3 Qe8 13. Rb1 Nd8 14. f3 Nbd7 15. fxe4 Nxe4 16. Bxd7 Nxc3 17. Bxe8 Nxd1 18. Rxf8+ Bxf8 19. Nxd1 Nxe8 20. cxd5 cxd5 21. Nde3 Ne6 22. Nxd5 Rd8 23. Ngf4 Nxd4 24. a4 Kg8 25. Bb2 Nc6 26. Rg1+ Kf7 (depth 31, 0:07:55)
[+] 3. Nxe5 (suggested move)

Analysis pinned to move 3
+1.50 [+] [*] 3. Nxe5 fxe4 4. d4 Nf6 5. Bg5 c6 6. Nd2 d6 7. Nxe4 Be7 8. Bxf6 Bxf6 9. Ng4 Nd7 10. Be2 O-O 11. O-O Kh8 12. Nc4 Ne6 13. Ngxf6 Nxf6 14. Ng3 d5 15. Ne5 c5 16. c3 Nd6 17. f3 cxd4 18. cxd4 Qa5 19. Rc1 (depth 32, 0:06:04)
[+] 3. Nxe5 (suggested move)


Crystal 7:

Analysis pinned to move 3
+0.55 [+] [*] 3. Nxe5 fxe4 4. d4 c6 5. Be2 Nf6 6. O-O d6 7. Ng4 Bxg4 8. Bxg4 d5 9. Bh3 Bd6 10. f3 O-O 11. Nc3 Bb4 12. Ne2 Nbd7 13. fxe4 Nxe4 14. c4 Bd6 15. Bh6 Rxf1+ 16. Qxf1 Qe7 17. Ngf4 Bxf4 18. Qxf4 Rf8 19. Qe3 (depth 31, 0:02:30)

Analysis pinned to move 3
+0.60 [+] [*] 3. Nxe5 fxe4 4. d4 c6 5. Be2 Nf6 6. O-O d6 7. Ng4 Bxg4 8. Bxg4 Nxg4 9. Qxg4 d5 10. f3 Qd7 11. Qxd7+ Nxd7 12. fxe4 dxe4 13. Nc3 Rg8 14. Nxe4 O-O-O 15. Nc4 Re8 16. Ng3 Ne6 17. c3 c5 18. Be3 Nc7 19. Bd2 Nd6 20. Nxd6+ Bxd6 21. Nf5 Nb5 22. Rae1 cxd4 23. Rxe8+ Rxe8 24. Nxd6+ Nxd6 (depth 32, 0:03:05)


Analysis pinned to move 3
+0.50 [+] [*] 3. Nxe5 fxe4 4. d4 c6 5. Be2 Nf6 6. O-O d6 7. Ng4 Bxg4 8. Bxg4 Nxg4 9. Qxg4 d5 10. f3 Qd7 11. Qxd7+ Nxd7 12. fxe4 dxe4 13. Nc3 O-O-O 14. Nxe4 Rg8 15. Nc4 Re8 16. Ng3 Ne6 17. c3 Nb6 18. Nce3 Nc7 19. Kh1 Nb5 20. Nh5 Be7 21. Bd2 N5d6 22. Ng3 Bg5 23. a4 (depth 35, 0:06:07)


Analysis pinned to move 3
+0.55 [+] [*] 3. Nxe5 fxe4 4. d4 c6 5. Be2 Nf6 6. O-O d6 7. Ng4 Bxg4 8. Bxg4 Nxg4 9. Qxg4 d5 10. f3 Qd7 11. Qxd7+ Nxd7 12. fxe4 dxe4 13. Nc3 O-O-O 14. Nxe4 Rg8 15. Nc4 Re8 16. Ng3 Ne6 17. c3 Nb6 18. Ne5 c5 19. Nf4 Bd6 20. Nxe6 Rxe6 21. Rf7 Nd5 22. Bd2 Bxe5 23. dxe5 Rxe5 24. Rxh7 Nd6 (depth 36, 0:07:02)

Analysis pinned to move 3
+0.57 [+] [*] 3. Nxe5 fxe4 4. d4 c6 5. Be2 Nf6 6. O-O d6 7. Ng4 Bxg4 8. Bxg4 Nxg4 9. Qxg4 d5 10. f3 Qd7 11. Qxd7+ Nxd7 12. fxe4 dxe4 13. Nc3 O-O-O 14. Nxe4 Rg8 15. Nc4 Re8 16. Ng3 Ne6 17. c3 Nb6 18. Ne5 c5 19. Nf4 Bd6 20. Nxe6 Rxe6 21. Rf7 Nd5 22. Bd2 Bxe5 23. dxe5 Rxe5 24. Raf1 Re2 25. Rf8+ Re8 26. Rxg8 Rxg8 27. Rf7 h5 (depth 37, 0:08:00)
[+] 3. Nxe5 (suggested move)
-----------------------------------
3...fxe4 is a move that the engines do not think is playable in classical chess (at least not very playable I think) but here the two engines both choose it. Rebel EAS has large scores but probably can be halved to compare with Stockfish?

[Stephen Ham]

Dear Peter Berger,

Long time, no talk, buddy!

You wrote,
"1. E4 e5 2. Nf3 nc6 3. C3
1. d4 Nf6 2. C4 e6 3. F3
I was absolutely sure that both of these should be a draw, as white didn’t do that bad. I couldn’t confirm it though – I didn’t find a convincing way for white to equalize."

The top line represents the Ponziani Opening. At least one very strong fellow Correspondence Chess GM loves it and thinks White is better. I also played it as White back in my OTB chess days, decades ago. So if you believe that White can't even equalize, then please show us Black's best line(s). My opinion is that Black struggles but can equalize only with 3...d5 and 3...Nf6.

The bottom line is interesting but quite uncommon and indeed probably dubious after 3...d5. Still please share your line(s) here too, Peter.

Thanks in advance.

All the very best,
-Steve-

[Graham Banks]

Dear Peter Berger,

Long time, no talk, buddy!

You wrote,
"1. E4 e5 2. Nf3 nc6 3. C3
1. d4 Nf6 2. C4 e6 3. F3
I was absolutely sure that both of these should be a draw, as white didn’t do that bad. I couldn’t confirm it though – I didn’t find a convincing way for white to equalize."

The top line represents the Ponziani Opening. At least one very strong fellow Correspondence Chess GM loves it and thinks White is better. So if you believe that White can't even equalize, then please show us Black's best line(s). My opinion is that Black struggles but can equalize only with 3...d5 and 3...Nf6.

The bottom line is interesting but quite uncommon and indeed probably dubious. Still please share your line(s) here too, Peter.

All the very best,
-Steve-

I used to play the Ponziani both otb and in correspondence (including a thematic).
I always include it in my opening book for testing.

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 4. Qa4 f6 5. d3 Nge7 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 4. Qa4 Nf6 5. Nxe5 Bd6 6. Nxc6 bxc6 7. d3 0-0 8. Be2 Re8 9. Nd2 Bg4 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 d5 4. Qa4 Bd7 5. exd5 Nd4 6. Qd1 Nxf3+ 7. Qxf3 Bd6 8. d4 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nge7 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf6 4. d4 Nxe4 5. d5 Bc5 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf6 4. d4 exd4 5. e5 Nd5 6. Bb5 a6 7. Ba4 Nb6 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf6 4. d4 exd4 5. e5 Nd5 6. Bb5 a6 7. Ba4 Be7 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf6 4. d3 d6 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf6 4. d3 d5 5. Nbd2 a5 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf6 4. d3 d5 5. Nbd2 g6 *
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 Nf6 4. d3 g6 5. b4 d6 *