I am NOT a good chess player, but there are Experts and Masters players here that can break down this position and explain to me why Black is better here After the White bishop took on c7?
[d]3r2k1/ppB2ppn/2b1p3/7q/4N3/5P2/PPP1Q1P1/5RK1 b - - 0 23
Please explain to me why Black is better here?
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Chessqueen
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Graham Banks
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Re: Please explain to me why Black is better here?
Just a guess, but I suspect that the white knight is holding things together for white, but can be easily be driven off or captured.Chessqueen wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 1:55 am I am NOT a good chess player, but there are Experts and Masters players here that can break down this position and explain to me why Black is better here After the White bishop took on c7?
[d]3r2k1/ppB2ppn/2b1p3/7q/4N3/5P2/PPP1Q1P1/5RK1 b - - 0 23
The other thing of note is the open h-file, which looks like it could be better used to black's advantage rather than white's.
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gordonr
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Re: Please explain to me why Black is better here?
Looking at engine analysis, it looks like Black has a combination to win a pawn after e.g. ..Rd7, Bf4, Qa5 and here you have to notice Black's double threat of capturing the a2 pawn AND Qb6+ forking the White king and b2 pawn.Chessqueen wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 1:55 am I am NOT a good chess player, but there are Experts and Masters players here that can break down this position and explain to me why Black is better here After the White bishop took on c7?
[d]3r2k1/ppB2ppn/2b1p3/7q/4N3/5P2/PPP1Q1P1/5RK1 b - - 0 23
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BrendanJNorman
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Re: Please explain to me why Black is better here?
Looks to me like simply a matter of king safety.
White's king will never be fully secure and black can simply keep queens on and harrass him endlessly.
Ideas like kicking (or capturing) on e4, playing ...Ng5, ...Qg6 and maybe even ...Rd5!? come to mind.
White doesn't have a comparable plan because black's king is completely secure.
White's king will never be fully secure and black can simply keep queens on and harrass him endlessly.
Ideas like kicking (or capturing) on e4, playing ...Ng5, ...Qg6 and maybe even ...Rd5!? come to mind.
White doesn't have a comparable plan because black's king is completely secure.
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CornfedForever
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Re: Please explain to me why Black is better here?
Black has more active pieces - particularly the rooks; and better king safety.Chessqueen wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 1:55 am I am NOT a good chess player, but there are Experts and Masters players here that can break down this position and explain to me why Black is better here After the White bishop took on c7?
[d]3r2k1/ppB2ppn/2b1p3/7q/4N3/5P2/PPP1Q1P1/5RK1 b - - 0 23
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Dann Corbit
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Re: Please explain to me why Black is better here?
I tried four engines which all gave black an advantage. Rebel 16.3 gave a large advantage:
Lc0:
3r2k1/ppB2ppn/2b1p3/7q/4N3/5P2/PPP1Q1P1/5RK1 b - - acd 17/41; acs 289; acn 1449k; ce 64; bm Rd7; pv Rd7 Bf4 Qa5 Nf2 Qxa2 b3 Nf8 Rd1 Rxd1+ Qxd1 f6 Nd3 Qa5 Qd2 Qxd2 Bxd2 e5 c4 Ne6 Be3 b6 Kf2 Kf7 b4 Nd4 Bxd4 exd4 Ke2 Ke6 Nc1 Be8 Kd3 Ke5 Nb3;
Big Leptir:
3r2k1/ppB2ppn/2b1p3/7q/4N3/5P2/PPP1Q1P1/5RK1 b - - acd 42/71; acs 280; acn 5743042k; ce 62; bm Rd7; pv Rd7 Bg3 Qa5 Qc4 Bxe4 fxe4 Nf8 Bf2 Rc7 Qb3 Qd2 c3 Ng6 Qd1 Rd7 Qxd2 Rxd2 Bxa7 Rxb2 Rf2 Rb1+ Rf1 Rb5 Bb8 Rb6 a4 Ra6 Ra1 e5 c4 Rc6 Rc1 f6 c5 Nf4 Rc4 b6 Ba7 bxc5 a5 Ne6 Kf2 Kf7 Bb6 Ke7 Ke3 Kd7 Rc1 c4 Kd2 Nd4 Rb1 c3+ Kd3 c2 Rc1;
Rebel 16.3:
3r2k1/ppB2ppn/2b1p3/7q/4N3/5P2/PPP1Q1P1/5RK1 b - - acd 40/55; acs 294; acn 2202214k; ce 184; bm Rd7; pv Rd7 Bg3 Qa5 Qc4 Qb6+ Bf2 Qxb2 Bxa7 Bxe4 Qxe4 Qxa2 Bd4 Nf8 Ra1 Qc4 c3 f6 f4 Rd5 Rb1 Rb5 Rxb5 Qxb5 Kf2 Kf7 c4 Qb4 Be3 Ng6 Qd3 Qe7 Qd4 Qc7 f5 Ne5 fxe6+ Ke7 Qd5 b6 Bd2 Qc5+ Kg3 g5 Kh3 Qxc4 Qb7+ Kxe6 Qxb6+ Kf5;
Stockfish:
3r2k1/ppB2ppn/2b1p3/7q/4N3/5P2/PPP1Q1P1/5RK1 b - - acd 49/63+; acs 267; acn 6400490k; ce 54; bm Rd7; pv Rd7;
Lc0:
3r2k1/ppB2ppn/2b1p3/7q/4N3/5P2/PPP1Q1P1/5RK1 b - - acd 17/41; acs 289; acn 1449k; ce 64; bm Rd7; pv Rd7 Bf4 Qa5 Nf2 Qxa2 b3 Nf8 Rd1 Rxd1+ Qxd1 f6 Nd3 Qa5 Qd2 Qxd2 Bxd2 e5 c4 Ne6 Be3 b6 Kf2 Kf7 b4 Nd4 Bxd4 exd4 Ke2 Ke6 Nc1 Be8 Kd3 Ke5 Nb3;
Big Leptir:
3r2k1/ppB2ppn/2b1p3/7q/4N3/5P2/PPP1Q1P1/5RK1 b - - acd 42/71; acs 280; acn 5743042k; ce 62; bm Rd7; pv Rd7 Bg3 Qa5 Qc4 Bxe4 fxe4 Nf8 Bf2 Rc7 Qb3 Qd2 c3 Ng6 Qd1 Rd7 Qxd2 Rxd2 Bxa7 Rxb2 Rf2 Rb1+ Rf1 Rb5 Bb8 Rb6 a4 Ra6 Ra1 e5 c4 Rc6 Rc1 f6 c5 Nf4 Rc4 b6 Ba7 bxc5 a5 Ne6 Kf2 Kf7 Bb6 Ke7 Ke3 Kd7 Rc1 c4 Kd2 Nd4 Rb1 c3+ Kd3 c2 Rc1;
Rebel 16.3:
3r2k1/ppB2ppn/2b1p3/7q/4N3/5P2/PPP1Q1P1/5RK1 b - - acd 40/55; acs 294; acn 2202214k; ce 184; bm Rd7; pv Rd7 Bg3 Qa5 Qc4 Qb6+ Bf2 Qxb2 Bxa7 Bxe4 Qxe4 Qxa2 Bd4 Nf8 Ra1 Qc4 c3 f6 f4 Rd5 Rb1 Rb5 Rxb5 Qxb5 Kf2 Kf7 c4 Qb4 Be3 Ng6 Qd3 Qe7 Qd4 Qc7 f5 Ne5 fxe6+ Ke7 Qd5 b6 Bd2 Qc5+ Kg3 g5 Kh3 Qxc4 Qb7+ Kxe6 Qxb6+ Kf5;
Stockfish:
3r2k1/ppB2ppn/2b1p3/7q/4N3/5P2/PPP1Q1P1/5RK1 b - - acd 49/63+; acs 267; acn 6400490k; ce 54; bm Rd7; pv Rd7;
Taking ideas is not a vice, it is a virtue. We have another word for this. It is called learning.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
But sharing ideas is an even greater virtue. We have another word for this. It is called teaching.
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gordonr
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Re: Please explain to me why Black is better here?
I was curious to see the role of relative king safety in this position so I tried a few changes to the position.
- change white pawn from b2 to b3. This doesn't affect the king side but black's advantage reduces significantly. Why? Because White no longer loses a pawn on the queenside
- add a white pawn to h2 and a black pawn at h6. This improves White's king safety and closes the h-file but Black's advantage increases
- the bishops of opposite colour is significant. We know this can affect attacking/defending. It so happens that White's kingside is weak on the dark squares but he is the one with the dark square bishop and Black doesn't have a dark square bishop. Again transfer White's bishop to a light square such as b3 (or d3) and Black's bishop to a dark square such as e7 and see how Black then has a clearly won position
- change white pawn from b2 to b3. This doesn't affect the king side but black's advantage reduces significantly. Why? Because White no longer loses a pawn on the queenside
- add a white pawn to h2 and a black pawn at h6. This improves White's king safety and closes the h-file but Black's advantage increases
- the bishops of opposite colour is significant. We know this can affect attacking/defending. It so happens that White's kingside is weak on the dark squares but he is the one with the dark square bishop and Black doesn't have a dark square bishop. Again transfer White's bishop to a light square such as b3 (or d3) and Black's bishop to a dark square such as e7 and see how Black then has a clearly won position
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Chessqueen
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Re: Please explain to me why Black is better here?
Thanks you all for making it clear as water to me.gordonr wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 11:51 am I was curious to see the role of relative king safety in this position so I tried a few changes to the position.
- change white pawn from b2 to b3. This doesn't affect the king side but black's advantage reduces significantly. Why? Because White no longer loses a pawn on the queenside
- add a white pawn to h2 and a black pawn at h6. This improves White's king safety and closes the h-file but Black's advantage increases
- the bishops of opposite colour is significant. We know this can affect attacking/defending. It so happens that White's kingside is weak on the dark squares but he is the one with the dark square bishop and Black doesn't have a dark square bishop. Again transfer White's bishop to a light square such as b3 (or d3) and Black's bishop to a dark square such as e7 and see how Black then has a clearly won position