ShashChess

[pohl4711]

The existing CCRL lists are a lost cause in my view and don't present meaningful information anymore. With different testers using different hardware, different GUIs, different GUI adjudication settings, different books, different tablebases, sometimes different hash sizes, and different opponent selection methodologies, there is a big error margin before the first game is even played. Add that to the statistical error margins and the high draw rate with stronger engines due to balanced books, and increasing core count and time control, and the lists end up being pretty meaningless and not worth the effort. Just my 2 cents worth. And on top of that, your choice of ratings tool and parameters will give you different answers as well.

I agree completely. But there is a nice little ratinglist on CCRL, using my unbalanced Chess324 openings:
https://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/C ... index.html
"Thanks to Stefan Pohl at SPCC for the excellent unbalanced 3-move Chess324 book used in this tournament Chess324_xxl_big_+090_+119"

So, even the CCRL-team uses biased openings already. And it is a huge round-robin, all openings repeated with reversed colors. So, here CCRL already does everything right, they are doing wrong in their other lists.
Nobody can stop the future!

[Graham Banks]

But there is a nice little ratinglist on CCRL, using my unbalanced Chess324 openings:
https://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/C ... index.html
"Thanks to Stefan Pohl at SPCC for the excellent unbalanced 3-move Chess324 book used in this tournament Chess324_xxl_big_+090_+119"

So, even the CCRL-team uses biased openings already.

That list is unlikely to be maintained any more.

[pohl4711]

But there is a nice little ratinglist on CCRL, using my unbalanced Chess324 openings:
https://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/C ... index.html
"Thanks to Stefan Pohl at SPCC for the excellent unbalanced 3-move Chess324 book used in this tournament Chess324_xxl_big_+090_+119"

So, even the CCRL-team uses biased openings already.

That list is unlikely to be maintained any more.

That would be very sad and real bad decision.

[Graham Banks]

But there is a nice little ratinglist on CCRL, using my unbalanced Chess324 openings:
https://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/C ... index.html
"Thanks to Stefan Pohl at SPCC for the excellent unbalanced 3-move Chess324 book used in this tournament Chess324_xxl_big_+090_+119"

So, even the CCRL-team uses biased openings already.

That list is unlikely to be maintained any more.

That would be very sad and real bad decision.

For you, yes.

Ray might of course maintain the list outside of CCRL.

[Modern Times]

But there is a nice little ratinglist on CCRL, using my unbalanced Chess324 openings:
https://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/C ... index.html
"Thanks to Stefan Pohl at SPCC for the excellent unbalanced 3-move Chess324 book used in this tournament Chess324_xxl_big_+090_+119"

So, even the CCRL-team uses biased openings already.

That list is unlikely to be maintained any more.

That would be very sad and real bad decision.

I played all the games on that list under the tightly controlled conditions you mentioned, all on my Intel 12700. I have now left CCRL though, so no further games from me. Potentially someone could continue under exactly the same conditions, except for the hardware. But as soon as you introduce different hardware you destroy the purity of the list. However it wouldn't be a big deal for someone else to start from scratch again.

[Modern Times]

Ray might of course maintain the list outside of CCRL.

With no Torch, Ethereal and Dragon that were supplied to CCRL testers for use only in CCRL testing, not possible in its current format. It would be free engines only, no private or commercial.

[Uri Blass]

But there is a nice little ratinglist on CCRL, using my unbalanced Chess324 openings:
https://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/C ... index.html
"Thanks to Stefan Pohl at SPCC for the excellent unbalanced 3-move Chess324 book used in this tournament Chess324_xxl_big_+090_+119"

So, even the CCRL-team uses biased openings already.

That list is unlikely to be maintained any more.

That would be very sad and real bad decision.

I played all the games on that list under the tightly controlled conditions you mentioned, all on my Intel 12700. I have now left CCRL though, so no further games from me. Potentially someone could continue under exactly the same conditions, except for the hardware. But as soon as you introduce different hardware you destroy the purity of the list. However it wouldn't be a big deal for someone else to start from scratch again.

If people do not want to start from scratch they can add engines to my fixed node rating list when results are not dependent on hardware.

[Graham Banks]

But there is a nice little ratinglist on CCRL, using my unbalanced Chess324 openings:
https://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/C ... index.html
"Thanks to Stefan Pohl at SPCC for the excellent unbalanced 3-move Chess324 book used in this tournament Chess324_xxl_big_+090_+119"

So, even the CCRL-team uses biased openings already.

That list is unlikely to be maintained any more.

That would be very sad and real bad decision.

I played all the games on that list under the tightly controlled conditions you mentioned, all on my Intel 12700. I have now left CCRL though, so no further games from me. Potentially someone could continue under exactly the same conditions, except for the hardware. But as soon as you introduce different hardware you destroy the purity of the list. However it wouldn't be a big deal for someone else to start from scratch again.

If people do not want to start from scratch they can add engines to my fixed node rating list when results are not dependent on hardware.

I think that you may have misunderstood?
Ray is leaving CCRL, but CCRL continues.

[Pali]

Statistically, it does change, as at 1m+1s much more pruning is done.
In addition, ShashChess dynamically evaluates position quality to direct the search: it should be obvious that it needs more time...
The 200 matches in our match are all from unbalanced positions, not dead draws.
Indeed, your result shows that, to try to beat ShashChess, you have to use Stockfish at its peak performance (bullet monster) and ShashChess at its minimum, but not even that!
In fact, if you try to run the same test between Stockfish and itself you will see obvious randomness in the final result.
In fact, the original search algorithm of Stockfish (and of any decent modern chess engine) inherently has its own randomness.

It is scary how much you actually know about proper testing despite refusing to do it yourself. Run a 50k game test against Stockfish at your time control of choice and share the PGNs. The claim that "It should be obvious that it needs more time..." is speculation that needs to be backed up by evidence and the burden of proof is on you.

[Uri Blass]

But there is a nice little ratinglist on CCRL, using my unbalanced Chess324 openings:
https://www.computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/C ... index.html
"Thanks to Stefan Pohl at SPCC for the excellent unbalanced 3-move Chess324 book used in this tournament Chess324_xxl_big_+090_+119"

So, even the CCRL-team uses biased openings already.

That list is unlikely to be maintained any more.

That would be very sad and real bad decision.

I played all the games on that list under the tightly controlled conditions you mentioned, all on my Intel 12700. I have now left CCRL though, so no further games from me. Potentially someone could continue under exactly the same conditions, except for the hardware. But as soon as you introduce different hardware you destroy the purity of the list. However it wouldn't be a big deal for someone else to start from scratch again.

If people do not want to start from scratch they can add engines to my fixed node rating list when results are not dependent on hardware.

I think that you may have misunderstood?
Ray is leaving CCRL, but CCRL continues.

I understood it.
I meant that people who want to add games to a list with different hardware without destroying the purity of the list can do it for my fixed node rating list(of course nobody has to do it and today I am the only person who give computer time for it).