WCCC 2024 participants are announced

Discussion of computer chess matches and engine tournaments.

Moderators: hgm, Rebel, chrisw

User avatar
hgm
Posts: 28138
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:06 am
Location: Amsterdam
Full name: H G Muller

Re: WCCC 2024 participants are announced

Post by hgm »

Remind me, which definition was that?
noobpwnftw
Posts: 684
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:10 pm
Full name: Bojun Guo

Re: WCCC 2024 participants are announced

Post by noobpwnftw »

Look at you. What sour episode did you experience to get this hell bent on selling out to clowns?

You and I both know fully well what this is about.
User avatar
hgm
Posts: 28138
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:06 am
Location: Amsterdam
Full name: H G Muller

Re: WCCC 2024 participants are announced

Post by hgm »

The difficulty of coming to terms with reality seems to have taken away your ability for rational thinking. Your last few posts don't make any sense at all...
noobpwnftw
Posts: 684
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2015 11:10 pm
Full name: Bojun Guo

Re: WCCC 2024 participants are announced

Post by noobpwnftw »

Unfortunately your version of reality is fading. Appearently the irrelevant event is folding its tent and I'm just making fun of it having to end with a blip.

Maybe next time some fraud will actually win a random prize somewhere by sending in a Dutch version your work and you'd be so proud of it.

Who knows? I get the sentiment though.
User avatar
hgm
Posts: 28138
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:06 am
Location: Amsterdam
Full name: H G Muller

Re: WCCC 2024 participants are announced

Post by hgm »

What do you imagine to be fading? Has Shashchess been rejected by the ICGA after all?
chrisw
Posts: 4464
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:28 pm
Location: Midi-Pyrénées
Full name: Christopher Whittington

Re: WCCC 2024 participants are announced

Post by chrisw »

hgm wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 6:31 pm What do you imagine to be fading? Has Shashchess been rejected by the ICGA after all?
Somebody, I read here, tested Shashchess against latest SF and got 98% similarity. If so, that's pretty conclusive.
User avatar
Rebel
Posts: 7208
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:04 pm
Full name: Ed Schröder

Re: WCCC 2024 participants are announced

Post by Rebel »

hgm wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 2:48 pm I don't understand the fuss. It seems obvious that if the 'official' Stockfish had wanted to participate, ICGA would not have accepted Shashchess, as it was clearly pointed out that these share most of their code.

It is up to ICGA to decide which engines they allow to run, and their policy has always been to accept any entry as long as the origin of the code is known, and its use is legal.

There seems to be some confusion about the concept of originality here; for the ICGA the only aspect of it that matters is that all participants are fully different, and not derivatives of each other. They must be fully original within the pool of participants. It was never a requirement that the person operating the machine and accepting the trophy had written 100% of the code; in fact it has frequently happened this person did not contribute any code at all. As long as the origin of the code is made public, this is fine.

Since the Stockfish code is available under GPL, its use in Shashchess is legal, provided the latter is open source. Which appears to be the case here.

Lying about the origin of the engine's code is a transgression of the WCCC rules that ICGA takes quite seriously, though.
In the past (so not sure if the rule is still exists) several improved derivatives (among them Fruit derivatives) have played in the WCCC, but not without the express permission of the original author, Fabien in this case.
90% of coding is debugging, the other 10% is writing bugs.
CRoberson
Posts: 2078
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:31 am
Location: North Carolina, USA

Re: WCCC 2024 participants are announced

Post by CRoberson »

crem wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2024 8:29 pm :arrow: GridChess using Fritz
:arrow: Johnny
:arrow: Leela Chess Zero
:arrow: Raptor
:arrow: rofChade
:arrow: Shashchess
:arrow: Stoofvlees
:arrow: Tech 4
:arrow: Tornado
Where did you get this? I went to icga.org and I don't see it.
User avatar
hgm
Posts: 28138
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:06 am
Location: Amsterdam
Full name: H G Muller

Re: WCCC 2024 participants are announced

Post by hgm »

chrisw wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 6:36 pm Somebody, I read here, tested Shashchess against latest SF and got 98% similarity. If so, that's pretty conclusive.
Conclusive for what? It is not contested by anyone that Shashchess is a close Stockfish derivative. ICGA is well aware of it. So what is there to conclude that wasn't known beforehand?
User avatar
hgm
Posts: 28138
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:06 am
Location: Amsterdam
Full name: H G Muller

Re: WCCC 2024 participants are announced

Post by hgm »

Rebel wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2024 7:57 pmIn the past (so not sure if the rule is still exists) several improved derivatives (among them Fruit derivatives) have played in the WCCC, but not without the express permission of the original author, Fabien in this case.
Indeed, there never has been a rule against accepting derivatives. At most there might have been a different interpretation of what 'permission of all contributing authors' means. In particular whether they consider a GPL license for the code sufficient permission or whether this requires a signed letter of one or all of the authors.

The WCCC rules originally were drawn up before the internet era, and were not really tailored for large-scale cooperative projects like nowadays are common. Adhering to an unnecessarily strict interpetation of these rules that interferes with their goals would be plain stupid. So it should not surprise anyone they adapt their interpretations, or even the rules, to what leads to the optimum result in this modern era.