GM Awonder Liang vs Leela Knight Odds Rapid match

Discussion of anything and everything relating to chess playing software and machines.

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Father
Posts: 1886
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:39 am
Location: Colombia
Full name: Pablo Ignacio Restrepo

Re: GM Awonder Liang vs Leela Knight Odds Rapid match

Post by Father »

Father wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 4:25 am
lkaufman wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 3:17 am
Uri Blass wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2024 10:17 pm
Looking at the games of Derrick I see strange moves and it seems that he does not understand basic principles.

Examples:

game 1:
https://lichess.org/3AIsysyo/black

I do not understand why 3...Nf6 and not 3...d5
I do not understand 9...Ke7

game 2:
https://lichess.org/lFNpyMIL/black

I do not understand 6...Be7 that does not develop pieces that i even have no reason to consider.
Black want to trade pieces and not to avoid trades.

game 3:
https://lichess.org/9rGhpgfn/black

I do not understand 1...e6 and not e5 or d5 and I do not understand the combination of 2..d5 and 2..b6 that seems to be passive.

It seems that the player does not follow basic principles in order to get a good position so that he can later force trades.
In game 1 3...Nf6 seems like a pre-move or instant bullet move; 9...Ke7 was surely a mouse-slip. In game 2 6...Be7 probably intended to trade with ...Bg5 but changed his mind. In game 3 the moves are not the ones I would make but not bad, probably it's just his normal opening in even game chess with ...b6 motivated by White's g4. Most likely a young tactical player with less refined judgment, or just playing super-fast due to bullet tc. Other players with such ratings have done better at 1'1".
… Good evening to the Leela team, good evening Mr. Larry Kaufman. Just as sleep and fatigue began to take over, I thought about the leaderboard of the top 100 human scores facing LeelaQueenOdds. And I thought about the humans who would like to be part of the leaderboard but who can't be there. And then I said to myself: Wouldn't it be more fair if instead of the top 100 there were, for example, the top 1000?
[pgn] [Event "Casual bullet game"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/XIVvkHPr"]
[Date "2024.12.18"]
[White "LeelaKnightOdds"]
[Black "Catecan"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[UTCDate "2024.12.18"]
[UTCTime "17:14:40"]
[WhiteElo "2000"]
[BlackElo "2030"]
[WhiteTitle "BOT"]
[Variant "From Position"]
[TimeControl "60+0"]
[ECO "?"]
[Opening "?"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. c4 f5 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e6 4. e3 c6 5. Bd3 d5 6. Qc2 g6 7. b3 Bd6 8. Bb2 Qe7 9. O-O Ba3 10. Bxa3 Qxa3 11. c5 Qa5 12. a4 a6 13. b4 Qc7 14. f4 Qe7 15. b5 Qc7 16. b6 Qe7 17. Na2 O-O 18. Rab1 Rf7 19. Qf2 Rg7 20. a5 Ne8 21. Nb4 Bd7 22. g4 Nf6 23. g5 Nh5 24. Be2 Be8 25. Qg2 Kh8 26. h4 Qf7 27. Rf2 Qe7 28. Qh2 Qf7 29. Rg2 Qe7 30. Kf2 Bf7 31. Ke1 Be8 32. Kd2 Qf7 33. Rgg1 Qe7 34. Nd3 Qf7 35. Qf2 Qe7 36. Rbc1 Qf7 37. Rc2 Qe7 38. Rb2 Qf7 39. Kc1 Qe7 40. Rc2 Qf7 41. Ne5 Qe7 42. Bf3 Kg8 43. Nd3 Kh8 44. Nb4 Kg8 45. Be2 Kh8 46. Qf1 Kg8 47. Nd3 Kh8 48. Ne5 Kg8 49. Qd1 Kh8 50. Kd2 Kg8 51. Ke1 Kh8 52. Nd3 Kg8 53. Kd2 Kh8 54. Qa1 Kg8 55. Kc3 Kh8 56. Kb3 Kg8 57. Ka2 Kh8 58. Kb1 Kg8 59. Kb2 Kh8 60. Kb3 Kg8 61. Bf3 Kh8 62. Nb4 Kg8 63. Be2 Kh8 64. Kb2 Kg8 65. Nd3 Kh8 66. Qe1 Kg8 67. Nb4 Kh8 68. Qf1 Kg8 69. Nd3 Kh8 70. Ne5 Kg8 71. Nd3 Kh8 72. Nb4 Kg8 73. Bd3 Kh8 74. Be2 { The game is a draw. } 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

Good afternoon... for some reason, LeelaknigjtOdds has been avoiding playing the machine with me for several days, giving me the white chips... this is not a problem for me, it doesn't bother me to see the machine doubtful, nor does it bother me, but it follows that the machine avoids me. I have a beautiful pompadour and hairstyle prepared for the machine that will look beautiful soon. I want to play as white and make the machine walk at a fine Spanish pace but it refuses again and again.
I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.
Father
Posts: 1886
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:39 am
Location: Colombia
Full name: Pablo Ignacio Restrepo

Re: GM Awonder Liang vs Leela Knight Odds Rapid match

Post by Father »

Father wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 6:34 pm
Father wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 4:25 am
lkaufman wrote: Tue Dec 17, 2024 3:17 am
Uri Blass wrote: Mon Dec 16, 2024 10:17 pm
Looking at the games of Derrick I see strange moves and it seems that he does not understand basic principles.

Examples:

game 1:
https://lichess.org/3AIsysyo/black

I do not understand why 3...Nf6 and not 3...d5
I do not understand 9...Ke7

game 2:
https://lichess.org/lFNpyMIL/black

I do not understand 6...Be7 that does not develop pieces that i even have no reason to consider.
Black want to trade pieces and not to avoid trades.

game 3:
https://lichess.org/9rGhpgfn/black

I do not understand 1...e6 and not e5 or d5 and I do not understand the combination of 2..d5 and 2..b6 that seems to be passive.

It seems that the player does not follow basic principles in order to get a good position so that he can later force trades.
In game 1 3...Nf6 seems like a pre-move or instant bullet move; 9...Ke7 was surely a mouse-slip. In game 2 6...Be7 probably intended to trade with ...Bg5 but changed his mind. In game 3 the moves are not the ones I would make but not bad, probably it's just his normal opening in even game chess with ...b6 motivated by White's g4. Most likely a young tactical player with less refined judgment, or just playing super-fast due to bullet tc. Other players with such ratings have done better at 1'1".
… Good evening to the Leela team, good evening Mr. Larry Kaufman. Just as sleep and fatigue began to take over, I thought about the leaderboard of the top 100 human scores facing LeelaQueenOdds. And I thought about the humans who would like to be part of the leaderboard but who can't be there. And then I said to myself: Wouldn't it be more fair if instead of the top 100 there were, for example, the top 1000?
[pgn] [Event "Casual bullet game"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/XIVvkHPr"]
[Date "2024.12.18"]
[White "LeelaKnightOdds"]
[Black "Catecan"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[UTCDate "2024.12.18"]
[UTCTime "17:14:40"]
[WhiteElo "2000"]
[BlackElo "2030"]
[WhiteTitle "BOT"]
[Variant "From Position"]
[TimeControl "60+0"]
[ECO "?"]
[Opening "?"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. c4 f5 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e6 4. e3 c6 5. Bd3 d5 6. Qc2 g6 7. b3 Bd6 8. Bb2 Qe7 9. O-O Ba3 10. Bxa3 Qxa3 11. c5 Qa5 12. a4 a6 13. b4 Qc7 14. f4 Qe7 15. b5 Qc7 16. b6 Qe7 17. Na2 O-O 18. Rab1 Rf7 19. Qf2 Rg7 20. a5 Ne8 21. Nb4 Bd7 22. g4 Nf6 23. g5 Nh5 24. Be2 Be8 25. Qg2 Kh8 26. h4 Qf7 27. Rf2 Qe7 28. Qh2 Qf7 29. Rg2 Qe7 30. Kf2 Bf7 31. Ke1 Be8 32. Kd2 Qf7 33. Rgg1 Qe7 34. Nd3 Qf7 35. Qf2 Qe7 36. Rbc1 Qf7 37. Rc2 Qe7 38. Rb2 Qf7 39. Kc1 Qe7 40. Rc2 Qf7 41. Ne5 Qe7 42. Bf3 Kg8 43. Nd3 Kh8 44. Nb4 Kg8 45. Be2 Kh8 46. Qf1 Kg8 47. Nd3 Kh8 48. Ne5 Kg8 49. Qd1 Kh8 50. Kd2 Kg8 51. Ke1 Kh8 52. Nd3 Kg8 53. Kd2 Kh8 54. Qa1 Kg8 55. Kc3 Kh8 56. Kb3 Kg8 57. Ka2 Kh8 58. Kb1 Kg8 59. Kb2 Kh8 60. Kb3 Kg8 61. Bf3 Kh8 62. Nb4 Kg8 63. Be2 Kh8 64. Kb2 Kg8 65. Nd3 Kh8 66. Qe1 Kg8 67. Nb4 Kh8 68. Qf1 Kg8 69. Nd3 Kh8 70. Ne5 Kg8 71. Nd3 Kh8 72. Nb4 Kg8 73. Bd3 Kh8 74. Be2 { The game is a draw. } 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

Good afternoon... for some reason, LeelaknigjtOdds has been avoiding playing the machine with me for several days, giving me the white chips... this is not a problem for me, it doesn't bother me to see the machine doubtful, nor does it bother me, but it follows that the machine avoids me. I have a beautiful pompadour and hairstyle prepared for the machine that will look beautiful soon. I want to play as white and make the machine walk at a fine Spanish pace but it refuses again and again.
...without a doubt this machine, LeelaKnight has progressed a lot, substantially improving its level of play which is characterized by being "anti-human" as opposed to the "anti-machine" style of play.) It is increasingly difficult to neutralize the machine, playing the human with the black ones.

[pgn] Event "Casual bullet game"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/5INzX3dx"]
[Date "2024.12.18"]
[White "LeelaKnightOdds"]
[Black "Catecan"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[UTCDate "2024.12.18"]
[UTCTime "18:35:34"]
[WhiteElo "2000"]
[BlackElo "2030"]
[WhiteTitle "BOT"]
[Variant "From Position"]
[TimeControl "60+0"]
[ECO "?"]
[Opening "?"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[FEN "rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKB1R w KQkq - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 e6 3. e3 Bd6 4. Qg4 g6 5. Bxd6 Qxd6 6. Nc3 f5 7. Qh4 Qe7 8. Qg3 Qd6 9. Qh4 Qe7 10. Qg3 Qd6 11. Qg5 Qe7 12. Qf4 Qd6 13. Qg5 Qe7 14. Qf4 Qd6 15. Qg5 { The game is a draw. } 1/2-1/2[/pgn]
I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.
Uri Blass
Posts: 10889
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: GM Awonder Liang vs Leela Knight Odds Rapid match

Post by Uri Blass »

https://lichess.org/QWU0N5A4YYR1

My first game against the rook odds bot with white is a draw but I play bad.

I blundered by h4 to prevent g5 and did not see that Leela can capture h4
In the end I decided to get a draw by the idea of perpetual check and not to take risks.

Note that I decided to push pawns forward with the idea that the opponent will have to trade pieces for capturing the pawns or the pawns are going to cause the opponent to be passive.
Father
Posts: 1886
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:39 am
Location: Colombia
Full name: Pablo Ignacio Restrepo

Re: GM Awonder Liang vs Leela Knight Odds Rapid match

Post by Father »

Uri Blass wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 8:53 pm https://lichess.org/QWU0N5A4YYR1

My first game against the rook odds bot with white is a draw but I play bad.

I blundered by h4 to prevent g5 and did not see that Leela can capture h4
In the end I decided to get a draw by the idea of perpetual check and not to take risks.

Note that I decided to push pawns forward with the idea that the opponent will have to trade pieces for capturing the pawns or the pawns are going to cause the opponent to be passive.
Excellent game Uri. You always played forward, taking risks, which is very difficult when facing chess computers, which are powerful tactical calculators. It was a game on the double edge of a sharp knife, anything could have happened, the computer's rook pawn supported by the queen was very dangerous, your queenside dynamic, but everything is uncertain. Well done Uri. Not many people in the world insist on playing against the machines. Look at the beating LeelaKnightOdds gave me today, I threw myself on the floor hundreds of times, I could have fallen frustrated and completely demoralized, but no, it is not right to give up. I would like to try against LeelaKnight playing with white, but the computer refuses, I don't know the reason. Let's move on Uri, as does Hissha, which makes me happy. Look Uri, behind me in the standings there are strong players breathing down my neck. I will try not to give up, to resist as much as I can, to give my best in this unequal battle. Congratulations Uri.
I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.
Marcus91
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2022 11:00 am
Full name: Marco Giorgio

Re: GM Awonder Liang vs Leela Knight Odds Rapid match

Post by Marcus91 »

Uri Blass wrote: Wed Dec 18, 2024 8:53 pm https://lichess.org/QWU0N5A4YYR1

My first game against the rook odds bot with white is a draw but I play bad.

I blundered by h4 to prevent g5 and did not see that Leela can capture h4
In the end I decided to get a draw by the idea of perpetual check and not to take risks.

Note that I decided to push pawns forward with the idea that the opponent will have to trade pieces for capturing the pawns or the pawns are going to cause the opponent to be passive.
I would appreciate it if you played more 15+10 games at rook odds
Uri Blass
Posts: 10889
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: GM Awonder Liang vs Leela Knight Odds Rapid match

Post by Uri Blass »

played today additional 2 games against the bot. lost 1.5-0.5(total result so far 2-1 for the bot(1 win and 2 draws)

In the second draw again I decided to accept repetition and not to take risks.
I do not play for a draw in the style of father but simply prefer not to take risks because I believe the bot is strong and allow repetition only if I believe the bot cannot improve the position without a repetition.

Here is the second draw

https://lichess.org/pDlLdR8W/black
Father
Posts: 1886
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:39 am
Location: Colombia
Full name: Pablo Ignacio Restrepo

Re: GM Awonder Liang vs Leela Knight Odds Rapid match

Post by Father »

Uri Blass wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 7:07 pm played today additional 2 games against the bot. lost 1.5-0.5(total result so far 2-1 for the bot(1 win and 2 draws)

In the second draw again I decided to accept repetition and not to take risks.
I do not play for a draw in the style of father but simply prefer not to take risks because I believe the bot is strong and allow repetition only if I believe the bot cannot improve the position without a repetition.

Here is the second draw

https://lichess.org/pDlLdR8W/black
...it seems that the move 12.f3 was a positional error that led to the generation of four pawn islands that ultimately led you to lose... these machines "don't forgive." Our best attitude when facing a super human player or a super machine is to apply the maxim: "Do not be afraid", without a doubt the introspection of such an attitude leads to the strongest that lives inside us, coming to the surface... I personally do not fear any player, neither human nor electronic, that does not mean that I am superior to rivals superior to me, but by subtraction of matter, it leads to a great inner force coming out of me and sometimes neutralizing or even defeating them. The shirt is not what indicates who is the best soccer player, it is really shown by his legs and his intelligence and above all the goals he scores. Personally, I admire the street fighter from the Charles Bronson movie, born during the Great Depression, where an unemployed man joins a street fight promoter in order to survive. The Top 100 tables that develop are the real-life ring, here the titles are won, not given for free. Whoever wants to have a leader's shirt and position in the Top 100 table must earn it through his own battles, not through the donation of bloodlines or federations and titles of the past or present. It is an aspiration for everyone, that is great.
I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.
Father
Posts: 1886
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:39 am
Location: Colombia
Full name: Pablo Ignacio Restrepo

Re: GM Awonder Liang vs Leela Knight Odds Rapid match

Post by Father »

Uri Blass wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 7:07 pm played today additional 2 games against the bot. lost 1.5-0.5(total result so far 2-1 for the bot(1 win and 2 draws)

In the second draw again I decided to accept repetition and not to take risks.
I do not play for a draw in the style of father but simply prefer not to take risks because I believe the bot is strong and allow repetition only if I believe the bot cannot improve the position without a repetition.

Here is the second draw

https://lichess.org/pDlLdR8W/black
Uri, I've been studying your games and there is something in particular in the general context that I admire and in my opinion is great: You insist on playing and playing, fighting, insist on fighting and fighting, so that you don't stay on the ground, but you get up... fall to get up again. And that is the attitude that a great anti-computer player requires, or more philosophically, a warrior in the battle of man against artificial intelligence... When I watch the players climb step by step very slowly in the leaderboard, I see an attitude of pursuing the best position, but not an attitude of achieving the greatest knowledge. If one wants to become a true anti-computer expert, one must fight many times, fall many times, and get up one last time, in the round that makes us winners
I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.
Uri Blass
Posts: 10889
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:37 am
Location: Tel-Aviv Israel

Re: GM Awonder Liang vs Leela Knight Odds Rapid match

Post by Uri Blass »

https://lichess.org/sTbCAB6FAe8V

This is the only game that I lost so far when 12.f3 was the practical losing blunder when I missed Qc5 that win material.
13.Be4 and 14.b4 were also mistakes and I simply miscalculated when I thought that after the long line after 14.b4 I am a piece up.

13.Bc2 was clearly better but not easy to win and practically I expect leela to win even after 13.Bc2 even if I have chances to draw so I consider 12.f3 as the practical losing mistake.
14.Kh1 was also better than 14.b4
Father
Posts: 1886
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:39 am
Location: Colombia
Full name: Pablo Ignacio Restrepo

Re: GM Awonder Liang vs Leela Knight Odds Rapid match

Post by Father »

Uri Blass wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2024 8:43 pm https://lichess.org/sTbCAB6FAe8V

This is the only game that I lost so far when 12.f3 was the practical losing blunder when I missed Qc5 that win material.
13.Be4 and 14.b4 were also mistakes and I simply miscalculated when I thought that after the long line after 14.b4 I am a piece up.

13.Bc2 was clearly better but not easy to win and practically I expect leela to win even after 13.Bc2 even if I have chances to draw so I consider 12.f3 as the practical losing mistake.
14.Kh1 was also better than 14.b4
... how strange ... I have seen that the number of matches of the best players against LeelaQueenOdds has decreased? Also in bullet controls there are fewer Masters... what reason could there be for the lack of enthusiasm? I also note that the Top 100 position table has not been updated... how sad all this is...
I am thinking chess is in a coin.Human beings for ever playing in one face.Now I am playing in the other face:"Antichess". Computers are as a fortres where owner forgot to close a little door behind. You must enter across this door.Forget the front.