Hopeless Apple Mac

[smatovic]

[...]
"SVE/SVE2 is not present for the Apple M4. "

Indeed, thanks for pointing out, there were rumors M4 is ARMv9, but it is not fully compliant, missing SVE resp. SVE2:

Apple M4 Support Added To The LLVM Compiler, Confirming Its ISA Capabilities
https://www.phoronix.com/news/Apple-M4- ... LLVM-Clang

"Technically apple-m4 is ARMv9.2a, but a quirk of LLVM defines v9.0 as requiring SVE, which is optional according to the Arm ARM and not supported by the core. ARMv8.7a is the next closest choice."

Idk about SME, scalable matrix extensions, if those are useful for things like NNUE.

Extensions atop ARMv8.7a exposed are AES, SHA2, SHA3, FP16, FP16FML, SME, SME2, SMEF64F64, and AEK_SMEI16I64.

--
Srdja

[ydebilloez]

I don't get why people think Apple is good for chess.

I wonder how many people want to have a >2800 engine except for those interested in competing for the title.

Banksia, stockfish, kommodo and scid run fine on mac, as do cutechess and ordo. I run chessbase through crossover. I compile natively through clang and have great battery life. For windows, I have win7 and win10 VMs. Not all people need a chess engine that has +3600 elo, for most people, 2800 elo will be good enough for the rest of the world and many macs can with stockfish achieve this easily.

As for raw CPU speed, I have roughly the same CPU performance across the different platforms. The best compiler platform is linux, far ahead of anything else, but the best program availability is windows and the best battery life is mac and the biggest audience is android... On linux, through KVM I get very decent speeds even through virtualisation, but yes your question was about mac.

So for people having a computer just for doing chess, mac has only a few advantages and has also some downsides, but for people using their computer for something more than running chess applications, the platform specifics with regards to chess shouldn't really make a difference.

[mclane]

Since there are a few Apple fanboys on this site, I was wondering if they had any way round this problem:

MacOS can't natively run a lot of chess apps like Chessbase, Fritz, Aquarium, etc etc.

You can run Parallels on MacOS which allows one to run Windows, but Parallels doesn't support AVX / BMI and other extensions, so Stockfish turns into Cripplefish the M4 Max looks like a CPU from 5 or 6 years ago.

I don't get why people think Apple is good for chess.

Format the harddrive and install something useful. But even if you do, the FAN-Cooler in those apple machines is so small you better throw it on the trash and buy a real PC.
I have a big Apple Imac and thought it would be useful for anything . I installed windows on it. And thought it could at least beeing used for doing emulations with franz Hubers DOS and dedicated chess computer stuff. But the iMac fan is blowing like hell , and that with an i7 CPU only because you emulate two 6502 machines on it.
Those emulated 6502 machines run only 1 or maximum 5 mhz. But the i7 fan cannot get the heat out of the imac.
Apple is something for people who do not really seriously do anything. Its a toy computer. You can do word and excel on it or watch a youtube movie. But thats all you can do with it.

All those drivers are special drivers by apple so the hardware is not running 100% power, that the machine is not overheating.
You cannot install real drivers although the hardware is there, because the heatsink efficiency is lousy.

Its IMO similar with these iphones.
You can do emails, telephone and whats app with them. But for all other stuff i do use a real mobile phone .

[Hai]

Since there are a few Apple fanboys on this site, I was wondering if they had any way round this problem:

MacOS can't natively run a lot of chess apps like Chessbase, Fritz, Aquarium, etc etc.

You can run Parallels on MacOS which allows one to run Windows, but Parallels doesn't support AVX / BMI and other extensions, so Stockfish turns into Cripplefish the M4 Max looks like a CPU from 5 or 6 years ago.

I don't get why people think Apple is good for chess.

Format the harddrive and install something useful. But even if you do, the FAN-Cooler in those apple machines is so small you better throw it on the trash and buy a real PC.
I have a big Apple Imac and thought it would be useful for anything . I installed windows on it. And thought it could at least beeing used for doing emulations with franz Hubers DOS and dedicated chess computer stuff. But the iMac fan is blowing like hell , and that with an i7 CPU only because you emulate two 6502 machines on it.
Those emulated 6502 machines run only 1 or maximum 5 mhz. But the i7 fan cannot get the heat out of the imac.
Apple is something for people who do not really seriously do anything. Its a toy computer. You can do word and excel on it or watch a youtube movie. But thats all you can do with it.

All those drivers are special drivers by apple so the hardware is not running 100% power, that the machine is not overheating.
You cannot install real drivers although the hardware is there, because the heatsink efficiency is lousy.

Its IMO similar with these iphones.
You can do emails, telephone and whats app with them. But for all other stuff i do use a real mobile phone .

It looks like you were frozen in the ice for quite a long time.
He is talking about M4 MAX CPU it's from Apple.
You are talking about:
i7 CPU it's from Intel.
Small FAN-Cooler -> i7 CPU
a big Apple Imac -> i7 CPU
installed windows -> i7 CPU
emulations -> i7 CPU
fan is blowing like hell -> and again due to i7 CPU
and that with an i7 CPU -> yes yes because it's an Intel i7 CPU
i7 fan cannot get the heat out of the iMac -> i7 CPU
= Yes, Intel's stone-age hardware in an iMac sucks. That's both to be expected and a given.

Apple is something for people who do not really seriously do anything. It's a toy computer. You can do word and excel on it or watch a youtube movie. But thats all you can do with it. = Complete nonsense.
-> Apple M4 MAX vs strongest i7 (iMac) CPU: https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_c ... _i7_10700k
-> Apple M4 MAX MacBook CPU can easily destroy newest and strongest Intel notebook CPU: https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_c ... tra_9_185h
-> Apple M4 MAX MacBook vs strongest Intel desktop CPU(250 watt): https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_c ... tra_9_285k
= 3-0

[jefk]

as most people know, Apple generally is quite good (also mobile)
but relatively more expensive

[Sopel]

apple silicon is just not good for intensive workloads, stockfish is optimized for ARM

[cpeters]

mclane,

how old is the iMacs (specs..)? Which version of Windows? How installed (refind/refit)? Which application (mess/mame?) is causing what (logs...) trouble? Is the sole emulation of 6502 the problem or some graphical/other hiccup of the frontend?

Linux should run well on it together with emulation of

6502 machines

, but then I got it, you don't like it.
Sounds like an Anwenderproblem (wrong tools used from the used clothes collection) at least - apart from that the machine seems broken (to the bin with it!).

greetings

[mclane]

Since there are a few Apple fanboys on this site, I was wondering if they had any way round this problem:

MacOS can't natively run a lot of chess apps like Chessbase, Fritz, Aquarium, etc etc.

You can run Parallels on MacOS which allows one to run Windows, but Parallels doesn't support AVX / BMI and other extensions, so Stockfish turns into Cripplefish the M4 Max looks like a CPU from 5 or 6 years ago.

I don't get why people think Apple is good for chess.

Format the harddrive and install something useful. But even if you do, the FAN-Cooler in those apple machines is so small you better throw it on the trash and buy a real PC.
I have a big Apple Imac and thought it would be useful for anything . I installed windows on it. And thought it could at least beeing used for doing emulations with franz Hubers DOS and dedicated chess computer stuff. But the iMac fan is blowing like hell , and that with an i7 CPU only because you emulate two 6502 machines on it.
Those emulated 6502 machines run only 1 or maximum 5 mhz. But the i7 fan cannot get the heat out of the imac.
Apple is something for people who do not really seriously do anything. Its a toy computer. You can do word and excel on it or watch a youtube movie. But thats all you can do with it.

All those drivers are special drivers by apple so the hardware is not running 100% power, that the machine is not overheating.
You cannot install real drivers although the hardware is there, because the heatsink efficiency is lousy.

Its IMO similar with these iphones.
You can do emails, telephone and whats app with them. But for all other stuff i do use a real mobile phone .

It looks like you were frozen in the ice for quite a long time.
He is talking about M4 MAX CPU it's from Apple.
You are talking about:
i7 CPU it's from Intel.
Small FAN-Cooler -> i7 CPU
a big Apple Imac -> i7 CPU
installed windows -> i7 CPU
emulations -> i7 CPU
fan is blowing like hell -> and again due to i7 CPU
and that with an i7 CPU -> yes yes because it's an Intel i7 CPU
i7 fan cannot get the heat out of the iMac -> i7 CPU
= Yes, Intel's stone-age hardware in an iMac sucks. That's both to be expected and a given.

Apple is something for people who do not really seriously do anything. It's a toy computer. You can do word and excel on it or watch a youtube movie. But thats all you can do with it. = Complete nonsense.
-> Apple M4 MAX vs strongest i7 (iMac) CPU: https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_c ... _i7_10700k
-> Apple M4 MAX MacBook CPU can easily destroy newest and strongest Intel notebook CPU: https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_c ... tra_9_185h
-> Apple M4 MAX MacBook vs strongest Intel desktop CPU(250 watt): https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_c ... tra_9_285k
= 3-0

Even the machine you are talking about with m4 max has severe cooling issues and is running slower because of the bad housing and cooling.
I prefer a normal Tower where you have space for Fan and cooling methos and not those flat toys

[Werewolf]

I'm trying not to be insulting, but Apple has (rather predictably IMO) struck again: A "new" Studio has been released with a *drumroll please* M3 Ultra.

What that means is you can forget any hope of an M4 / M5 Ultra for years.

[Werewolf]

Yeah this is poor:

https://www.tomsguide.com/computing/cpu ... -benchmark