Hikaru completes trilogy with Leela

[lkaufman]

Having played a bullet chess match with LeelaQueenOdds (drawn) and a blitz chess match with LeelaKnightOdds (lost 14 to 2), Hikaru completed the trilogy today by playing a blitz (3'2") match with LeelaRookOdds. Despite taking White in eight of the fourteen games ("rook and move" odds), he lost by 9.5 to 4.5 (seven wins for Leela, two for Hikaru, five draws). Although this was noticeably better than his result at knight odds, Hikaru expected the larger handicap to make more of a difference, and was surprised to lose the match, especially by such a score. One factor was that the bot hardware was upgraded from 4090 to 5090 between the matches, but this was probably just a modest help. Although he claimed to be "on tilt" after many losses, both of his wins came near the end, so that cannot be responsible for the result. I don't believe anyone else has made an even or positive score at rook odds at 3'2" or faster against the current net, so it remains an open question as to whether anyone can surpass Hikaru's score under these conditions. The matches do seem to show that although rook odds is larger than knight odds, it is not so much larger as many might have thought.

[M ANSARI]

Yes, that was very interesting match and you could see Hikaru's frustration at the BOT not playing for the strongest moves when it comes to trading down pieces. The BOT is tuned to play the "trickiest" move rather than the "strongest" move in the position and will avoid trading down pieces unless it is absolutely necessary. This works really well against humans and probably not so well against other engines. The NN of Leela takes advantage of humans fallibility of consistently falling for a tactical trick eventually ... with Queen odds you have a lot of material advantage, so even losing a piece is not fatal ... but with only Rook odds ... you lose a piece and all of a sudden you are facing a 4000 ELO monster with only a small advantage ... no contest.

Here is the link for anyone interested

[towforce]

Yes, that was very interesting match and you could see Hikaru's frustration at the BOT not playing for the strongest moves when it comes to trading down pieces. The BOT is tuned to play the "trickiest" move rather than the "strongest" move in the position and will avoid trading down pieces unless it is absolutely necessary. This works really well against humans and probably not so well against other engines. The NN of Leela takes advantage of humans fallibility of consistently falling for a tactical trick eventually ... with Queen odds you have a lot of material advantage, so even losing a piece is not fatal ... but with only Rook odds ... you lose a piece and all of a sudden you are facing a 4000 ELO monster with only a small advantage ... no contest.

This!

Here is the link for anyone interested

Thank you. I'll take a look at that when time permits.

[lkaufman]

Yes, that was very interesting match and you could see Hikaru's frustration at the BOT not playing for the strongest moves when it comes to trading down pieces. The BOT is tuned to play the "trickiest" move rather than the "strongest" move in the position and will avoid trading down pieces unless it is absolutely necessary. This works really well against humans and probably not so well against other engines. The NN of Leela takes advantage of humans fallibility of consistently falling for a tactical trick eventually ... with Queen odds you have a lot of material advantage, so even losing a piece is not fatal ... but with only Rook odds ... you lose a piece and all of a sudden you are facing a 4000 ELO monster with only a small advantage ... no contest.

Here is the link for anyone interested

I disagree with "and probably not so well against other engines". Even against other engines, the best strategy is to avoid even exchanges if at all plausible. It's better to be down by a 9 to 8 ratio than by a 5 to 4 ratio, for example, regardless of who your opponent is. Our testing shows that at least against bots that are trained on human games, these odds bots are way better than any normal engine in odds play. Probably it is less so against traditional engines, but still clearly true. Against the human-simulating bots, there doesn't seem to be much difference between giving odds to a 2500 human or to a bot that is even (in standard chess) with that 2500 human.

[towforce]

I disagree with "and probably not so well against other engines". Even against other engines, the best strategy is to avoid even exchanges if at all plausible. It's better to be down by a 9 to 8 ratio than by a 5 to 4 ratio, for example, regardless of who your opponent is. Our testing shows that at least against bots that are trained on human games, these odds bots are way better than any normal engine in odds play. Probably it is less so against traditional engines, but still clearly true. Against the human-simulating bots, there doesn't seem to be much difference between giving odds to a 2500 human or to a bot that is even (in standard chess) with that 2500 human.

This is turning out to be an unexpectedly insightful thread!

If the key factor is not human susceptibility to "trickiness", then we have a new way to win games that might otherwise end in a draw.

If (and only if) you believe that your engine is stronger than your opponent's engine, then rework it as follows:

1. Evaluate all moves in the usual way

2. Pick the top moves which are roughly equal in eval

3. Evaluate these moves for complexity

3a. Keeps as many pieces on the board as possible

3b. Has as much engagement between opposite coloured pieces as possible

3c. Alternatively, train a separate NN to evaluate a position's complexity (this is 2025 - none of this hand-coding nonsense! )

4. Pick the move with the most complexity

5. The weaker engine will become confused and bewildered, it won't be able to see so far ahead in its game tree, it won't be able to make sense of the large number of interacting chess patterns, and hence will be much more likely to make a bad move

[Father]

[/pgn]

Having played a bullet chess match with LeelaQueenOdds (drawn) and a blitz chess match with LeelaKnightOdds (lost 14 to 2), Hikaru completed the trilogy today by playing a blitz (3'2") match with LeelaRookOdds. Despite taking White in eight of the fourteen games ("rook and move" odds), he lost by 9.5 to 4.5 (seven wins for Leela, two for Hikaru, five draws). Although this was noticeably better than his result at knight odds, Hikaru expected the larger handicap to make more of a difference, and was surprised to lose the match, especially by such a score. One factor was that the bot hardware was upgraded from 4090 to 5090 between the matches, but this was probably just a modest help. Although he claimed to be "on tilt" after many losses, both of his wins came near the end, so that cannot be responsible for the result. I don't believe anyone else has made an even or positive score at rook odds at 3'2" or faster against the current net, so it remains an open question as to whether anyone can surpass Hikaru's score under these conditions. The matches do seem to show that although rook odds is larger than knight odds, it is not so much larger as many might have thought.

Good evening, Mr. Larry Kaufman. Thank you very much for your teachings. I also have a deep gratitude to GM Hikaru Nakamura for teaching us all his combat against bots. I've seen that human super champions play to win. Perhaps I would believe they should play to win, but in the longer term, through long-term strategic maneuvers beyond the algorithm's blind spot. If I had the talent and skill of GM Hikaru Nakamura, I would believe I would give the computers a hard time. But I must be realistic and manage my own inner self. Today I played my first match against LeelaRookOdds and I tied. The time control was 3+2. I wonder... What would my final score be?

[pgn] [Event "casual blitz game"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/0xtmjVU3"]
[Date "2025.07.02"]
[White "Catecan"]
[Black "LeelaRookOdds"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[GameId "0xtmjVU3"]
[UTCDate "2025.07.02"]
[UTCTime "00:27:20"]
[WhiteElo "2082"]
[BlackElo "2000"]
[BlackTitle "BOT"]
[Variant "From Position"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]
[ECO "?"]
[Opening "?"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[FEN "1nbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQk - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. f4 c5 3. e3 e6 4. Nf3 h6 5. c3 g5 6. Bd3 g4 7. Nh4 b6 8. g3 Bb7 9. O-O Be7 10. Qe2 Nc6 11. Bd2 Qc7 12. Be1 Ba8 13. Nd2 Qb7 14. Ng2 h5 15. a3 O-O 16. Ba6 Qc7 17. Bd3 d5 18. Nh4 Bb7 19. b4 Re8 20. Bf2 c4 21. Bc2 a6 22. Rfc1 b5 23. Bd1 Bd8 24. Nf1 Ne4 25. Nd2 Nd6 26. Nf1 f5 27. Be1 Ne4 28. Nd2 Nd6 29. Nf1 Ne4 30. Nd2 Nd6 31. Nf1 { The game is a draw. } 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

[Father]

[/pgn]

Having played a bullet chess match with LeelaQueenOdds (drawn) and a blitz chess match with LeelaKnightOdds (lost 14 to 2), Hikaru completed the trilogy today by playing a blitz (3'2") match with LeelaRookOdds. Despite taking White in eight of the fourteen games ("rook and move" odds), he lost by 9.5 to 4.5 (seven wins for Leela, two for Hikaru, five draws). Although this was noticeably better than his result at knight odds, Hikaru expected the larger handicap to make more of a difference, and was surprised to lose the match, especially by such a score. One factor was that the bot hardware was upgraded from 4090 to 5090 between the matches, but this was probably just a modest help. Although he claimed to be "on tilt" after many losses, both of his wins came near the end, so that cannot be responsible for the result. I don't believe anyone else has made an even or positive score at rook odds at 3'2" or faster against the current net, so it remains an open question as to whether anyone can surpass Hikaru's score under these conditions. The matches do seem to show that although rook odds is larger than knight odds, it is not so much larger as many might have thought.

Good evening, Mr. Larry Kaufman. Thank you very much for your teachings. I also have a deep gratitude to GM Hikaru Nakamura for teaching us all his combat against bots. I've seen that human super champions play to win. Perhaps I would believe they should play to win, but in the longer term, through long-term strategic maneuvers beyond the algorithm's blind spot. If I had the talent and skill of GM Hikaru Nakamura, I would believe I would give the computers a hard time. But I must be realistic and manage my own inner self. Today I played my first match against LeelaRookOdds and I tied. The time control was 3+2. I wonder... What would my final score be?

[pgn] [Event "casual blitz game"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/0xtmjVU3"]
[Date "2025.07.02"]
[White "Catecan"]
[Black "LeelaRookOdds"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[GameId "0xtmjVU3"]
[UTCDate "2025.07.02"]
[UTCTime "00:27:20"]
[WhiteElo "2082"]
[BlackElo "2000"]
[BlackTitle "BOT"]
[Variant "From Position"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]
[ECO "?"]
[Opening "?"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[FEN "1nbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQk - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. f4 c5 3. e3 e6 4. Nf3 h6 5. c3 g5 6. Bd3 g4 7. Nh4 b6 8. g3 Bb7 9. O-O Be7 10. Qe2 Nc6 11. Bd2 Qc7 12. Be1 Ba8 13. Nd2 Qb7 14. Ng2 h5 15. a3 O-O 16. Ba6 Qc7 17. Bd3 d5 18. Nh4 Bb7 19. b4 Re8 20. Bf2 c4 21. Bc2 a6 22. Rfc1 b5 23. Bd1 Bd8 24. Nf1 Ne4 25. Nd2 Nd6 26. Nf1 f5 27. Be1 Ne4 28. Nd2 Nd6 29. Nf1 Ne4 30. Nd2 Nd6 31. Nf1 { The game is a draw. } 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

[pgn] [Event "casual blitz game"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/LzcC6Qch"]
[Date "2025.07.02"]
[White "Catecan"]
[Black "LeelaRookOdds"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[GameId "LzcC6Qch"]
[UTCDate "2025.07.02"]
[UTCTime "02:34:15"]
[WhiteElo "2082"]
[BlackElo "2000"]
[BlackTitle "BOT"]
[Variant "From Position"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]
[ECO "?"]
[Opening "?"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[FEN "1nbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQk - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. d4 d6 2. f4 f5 3. e3 e6 4. Nf3 h6 5. c3 g5 6. g3 g4 7. Nh4 Kf7 8. Bd3 d5 9. Kf1 h5 10. Bd2 Be7 11. Be1 b6 12. Rg1 c5 13. Qe2 Nf6 14. Rg2 Rg8 15. Kg1 Bb7 16. a3 Qd7 17. Nd2 Nc6 18. Ba6 Ba8 19. Bd3 c4 20. Bc2 b5 21. Nf1 a5 22. Bd1 Na7 23. Qc2 Bc6 24. Kh1 Nc8 25. Kg1 Nd6 26. Kh1 Nc8 27. Kg1 Nd6 28. Kh1 Qd8 29. Kg1 Bd7 30. Kh1 Bc6 31. Kg1 Nd7 32. Kh1 Ne4 33. Kg1 Qa8 34. Kh1 Qd8 35. Kg1 Qa8 36. Kh1 Nb6 37. Kg1 Qb7 38. Kh1 Qa8 39. Kg1 Qb7 40. Kh1 Nd7 41. Kg1 Nd6 42. Kh1 Ne4 43. Kg1 a4 44. Kh1 Ke8 45. Qe2 Kd8 46. Rc1 Kc7 47. Rc2 Qb8 48. Kg1 Kb6 49. Kh1 Ka6 50. Rc1 Kb6 51. Qc2 Ndf6 52. Kg1 Ne8 53. Kh1 N8d6 54. Kg1 Nb7 55. Kh1 Na5 56. Kg1 Nb3 57. Rb1 Nd6 58. Kh1 Ne4 59. Kg1 Nd6 60. Kh1 Bd7 61. Kg1 Na5 62. Kh1 Nc6 63. Rc1 Ne4 64. Kg1 Na5 65. Kh1 Nc6 66. Kg1 Na5 67. Kh1 Nb3 68. Rb1 Na5 69. Kg1 Nb3 70. Kh1 Kb7 71. Kg1 Nd6 72. Kh1 Na5 73. Rc1 Nb3 74. Rb1 Ka6 75. Kg1 Ne4 76. Kh1 Na5 77. Rc1 Nb3 78. Rb1 Nf6 79. Kg1 Na5 80. Rc1 Nc6 81. Kh1 Ne4 82. Kg1 Na5 83. Kh1 Nf6 84. Kg1 Ne4 85. Kh1 { The game is a draw. } 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

[Father]

[/pgn]

Having played a bullet chess match with LeelaQueenOdds (drawn) and a blitz chess match with LeelaKnightOdds (lost 14 to 2), Hikaru completed the trilogy today by playing a blitz (3'2") match with LeelaRookOdds. Despite taking White in eight of the fourteen games ("rook and move" odds), he lost by 9.5 to 4.5 (seven wins for Leela, two for Hikaru, five draws). Although this was noticeably better than his result at knight odds, Hikaru expected the larger handicap to make more of a difference, and was surprised to lose the match, especially by such a score. One factor was that the bot hardware was upgraded from 4090 to 5090 between the matches, but this was probably just a modest help. Although he claimed to be "on tilt" after many losses, both of his wins came near the end, so that cannot be responsible for the result. I don't believe anyone else has made an even or positive score at rook odds at 3'2" or faster against the current net, so it remains an open question as to whether anyone can surpass Hikaru's score under these conditions. The matches do seem to show that although rook odds is larger than knight odds, it is not so much larger as many might have thought.

Good evening, Mr. Larry Kaufman. Thank you very much for your teachings. I also have a deep gratitude to GM Hikaru Nakamura for teaching us all his combat against bots. I've seen that human super champions play to win. Perhaps I would believe they should play to win, but in the longer term, through long-term strategic maneuvers beyond the algorithm's blind spot. If I had the talent and skill of GM Hikaru Nakamura, I would believe I would give the computers a hard time. But I must be realistic and manage my own inner self. Today I played my first match against LeelaRookOdds and I tied. The time control was 3+2. I wonder... What would my final score be?

[pgn] [Event "casual blitz game"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/0xtmjVU3"]
[Date "2025.07.02"]
[White "Catecan"]
[Black "LeelaRookOdds"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[GameId "0xtmjVU3"]
[UTCDate "2025.07.02"]
[UTCTime "00:27:20"]
[WhiteElo "2082"]
[BlackElo "2000"]
[BlackTitle "BOT"]
[Variant "From Position"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]
[ECO "?"]
[Opening "?"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[FEN "1nbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQk - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. f4 c5 3. e3 e6 4. Nf3 h6 5. c3 g5 6. Bd3 g4 7. Nh4 b6 8. g3 Bb7 9. O-O Be7 10. Qe2 Nc6 11. Bd2 Qc7 12. Be1 Ba8 13. Nd2 Qb7 14. Ng2 h5 15. a3 O-O 16. Ba6 Qc7 17. Bd3 d5 18. Nh4 Bb7 19. b4 Re8 20. Bf2 c4 21. Bc2 a6 22. Rfc1 b5 23. Bd1 Bd8 24. Nf1 Ne4 25. Nd2 Nd6 26. Nf1 f5 27. Be1 Ne4 28. Nd2 Nd6 29. Nf1 Ne4 30. Nd2 Nd6 31. Nf1 { The game is a draw. } 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

[pgn] [Event "casual blitz game"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/LzcC6Qch"]
[Date "2025.07.02"]
[White "Catecan"]
[Black "LeelaRookOdds"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[GameId "LzcC6Qch"]
[UTCDate "2025.07.02"]
[UTCTime "02:34:15"]
[WhiteElo "2082"]
[BlackElo "2000"]
[BlackTitle "BOT"]
[Variant "From Position"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]
[ECO "?"]
[Opening "?"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[FEN "1nbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQk - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. d4 d6 2. f4 f5 3. e3 e6 4. Nf3 h6 5. c3 g5 6. g3 g4 7. Nh4 Kf7 8. Bd3 d5 9. Kf1 h5 10. Bd2 Be7 11. Be1 b6 12. Rg1 c5 13. Qe2 Nf6 14. Rg2 Rg8 15. Kg1 Bb7 16. a3 Qd7 17. Nd2 Nc6 18. Ba6 Ba8 19. Bd3 c4 20. Bc2 b5 21. Nf1 a5 22. Bd1 Na7 23. Qc2 Bc6 24. Kh1 Nc8 25. Kg1 Nd6 26. Kh1 Nc8 27. Kg1 Nd6 28. Kh1 Qd8 29. Kg1 Bd7 30. Kh1 Bc6 31. Kg1 Nd7 32. Kh1 Ne4 33. Kg1 Qa8 34. Kh1 Qd8 35. Kg1 Qa8 36. Kh1 Nb6 37. Kg1 Qb7 38. Kh1 Qa8 39. Kg1 Qb7 40. Kh1 Nd7 41. Kg1 Nd6 42. Kh1 Ne4 43. Kg1 a4 44. Kh1 Ke8 45. Qe2 Kd8 46. Rc1 Kc7 47. Rc2 Qb8 48. Kg1 Kb6 49. Kh1 Ka6 50. Rc1 Kb6 51. Qc2 Ndf6 52. Kg1 Ne8 53. Kh1 N8d6 54. Kg1 Nb7 55. Kh1 Na5 56. Kg1 Nb3 57. Rb1 Nd6 58. Kh1 Ne4 59. Kg1 Nd6 60. Kh1 Bd7 61. Kg1 Na5 62. Kh1 Nc6 63. Rc1 Ne4 64. Kg1 Na5 65. Kh1 Nc6 66. Kg1 Na5 67. Kh1 Nb3 68. Rb1 Na5 69. Kg1 Nb3 70. Kh1 Kb7 71. Kg1 Nd6 72. Kh1 Na5 73. Rc1 Nb3 74. Rb1 Ka6 75. Kg1 Ne4 76. Kh1 Na5 77. Rc1 Nb3 78. Rb1 Nf6 79. Kg1 Na5 80. Rc1 Nc6 81. Kh1 Ne4 82. Kg1 Na5 83. Kh1 Nf6 84. Kg1 Ne4 85. Kh1 { The game is a draw. } 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

Good evening, Mr. Larry Kaufman. I'm afraid I won't be able to catch GM Hikaru Nakamura in this short march.

[pgn] [Event "casual blitz game"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/creeqcTK"]
[Date "2025.07.02"]
[White "Catecan"]
[Black "LeelaRookOdds"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[GameId "creeqcTK"]
[UTCDate "2025.07.02"]
[UTCTime "03:41:16"]
[WhiteElo "2082"]
[BlackElo "2000"]
[BlackTitle "BOT"]
[Variant "From Position"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]
[ECO "?"]
[Opening "?"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[FEN "1nbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQk - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. d4 g6 2. f4 d5 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. e3 c5 5. c3 Qc7 6. Bd3 Nh6 7. Qe2 O-O 8. O-O Ng4 9. Re1 Rd8 10. a3 b6 11. Nbd2 Nd7 12. Ba6 Bxa6 13. Qxa6 c4 14. Qa4 Rc8 15. Qc2 Bh6 16. Nf1 f5 17. Re2 Ngf6 18. g3 Ne4 19. Rg2 Ndf6 20. Bd2 g5 21. Be1 g4 22. Nh4 e6 23. Kh1 Bf8 24. Kg1 Kf7 25. Kh1 Be7 26. Kg1 h5 27. Kh1 Rg8 28. Kg1 Nd6 29. Kh1 Rb8 30. Kg1 Qb7 31. Kh1 a5 32. Kg1 b5 33. Kh1 Qa6 34. Kg1 Rg8 35. Kh1 Nd7 36. Kg1 Nb6 37. Kh1 Nd7 38. Kg1 Nb6 39. Kh1 Qa8 40. Kg1 Bd8 41. Kh1 Be7 42. Kg1 Ke8 43. Kh1 Rg7 44. Kg1 Kf7 45. Kh1 Qc8 46. Kg1 Na4 47. Kh1 Qa8 48. Kg1 Qc8 49. Kh1 Qa8 50. Kg1 Bf6 51. Kh1 Bd8 52. Kg1 Be7 53. Kh1 Bf6 54. Kg1 Qe8 55. Kh1 Qa8 56. Kg1 Qb7 57. Kh1 Be7 58. Kg1 Nb6 59. Kh1 Qa8 60. Kg1 Ke8 61. Kh1 Kf7 62. Kg1 Qg8 63. Kh1 Bf6 64. Kg1 Qe8 65. Kh1 Qg8 66. Kg1 Qe8 67. Kh1 a4 68. Kg1 Nd7 69. Qe2 Qg8 70. Rc1 Ke8 71. Rc2 Kd8 72. Kh1 Ke8 73. Kg1 Nf8 74. Kh1 Bd8 75. Kg1 Rh7 76. Kh1 Bf6 77. Kg1 Be7 78. Kh1 Rg7 79. Kg1 Qh7 80. Kh1 Bf6 81. Kg1 Nd7 82. Kh1 Nb8 83. Kg1 Nc6 84. Kh1 Ne7 85. Kg1 Nc6 86. Kh1 Qg8 87. Kg1 Be7 88. Kh1 Bf6 89. Kg1 Be7 90. Kh1 Kd7 91. Kg1 Ne4 92. Kh1 Nf6 93. Kg1 Ke8 94. Kh1 Nd7 95. Kg1 Bf6 96. Kh1 Kf8 97. Kg1 Na5 98. Kh1 Ke7 99. Kg1 Nb3 100. Kh1 Kf8 101. Kg1 Na5 102. Kh1 Ke7 103. Kg1 Nb3 104. Kh1 Bxh4 105. gxh4 Nf6 106. Bg3 Na1 107. Rc1 Nb3 108. Rc2 Kd7 109. Qe1 Ne4 110. Kg1 Nd6 111. Kh1 Ne4 112. Kg1 Kd6 113. Kh1 Kc7 114. Kg1 Kd6 115. Kh1 Ke7 116. Kg1 Kd7 117. Kh1 Ke8 118. Kg1 Ke7 119. Kh1 Kd8 120. Nd2 Nf6 121. Nf1 Kc8 122. Kg1 Kd7 123. Kh1 Kc7 124. Kg1 Kd7 125. Kh1 { The game is a draw. } 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

[Father]

[/pgn]

Having played a bullet chess match with LeelaQueenOdds (drawn) and a blitz chess match with LeelaKnightOdds (lost 14 to 2), Hikaru completed the trilogy today by playing a blitz (3'2") match with LeelaRookOdds. Despite taking White in eight of the fourteen games ("rook and move" odds), he lost by 9.5 to 4.5 (seven wins for Leela, two for Hikaru, five draws). Although this was noticeably better than his result at knight odds, Hikaru expected the larger handicap to make more of a difference, and was surprised to lose the match, especially by such a score. One factor was that the bot hardware was upgraded from 4090 to 5090 between the matches, but this was probably just a modest help. Although he claimed to be "on tilt" after many losses, both of his wins came near the end, so that cannot be responsible for the result. I don't believe anyone else has made an even or positive score at rook odds at 3'2" or faster against the current net, so it remains an open question as to whether anyone can surpass Hikaru's score under these conditions. The matches do seem to show that although rook odds is larger than knight odds, it is not so much larger as many might have thought.

Good evening, Mr. Larry Kaufman. Thank you very much for your teachings. I also have a deep gratitude to GM Hikaru Nakamura for teaching us all his combat against bots. I've seen that human super champions play to win. Perhaps I would believe they should play to win, but in the longer term, through long-term strategic maneuvers beyond the algorithm's blind spot. If I had the talent and skill of GM Hikaru Nakamura, I would believe I would give the computers a hard time. But I must be realistic and manage my own inner self. Today I played my first match against LeelaRookOdds and I tied. The time control was 3+2. I wonder... What would my final score be?

[pgn] [Event "casual blitz game"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/0xtmjVU3"]
[Date "2025.07.02"]
[White "Catecan"]
[Black "LeelaRookOdds"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[GameId "0xtmjVU3"]
[UTCDate "2025.07.02"]
[UTCTime "00:27:20"]
[WhiteElo "2082"]
[BlackElo "2000"]
[BlackTitle "BOT"]
[Variant "From Position"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]
[ECO "?"]
[Opening "?"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[FEN "1nbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQk - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. f4 c5 3. e3 e6 4. Nf3 h6 5. c3 g5 6. Bd3 g4 7. Nh4 b6 8. g3 Bb7 9. O-O Be7 10. Qe2 Nc6 11. Bd2 Qc7 12. Be1 Ba8 13. Nd2 Qb7 14. Ng2 h5 15. a3 O-O 16. Ba6 Qc7 17. Bd3 d5 18. Nh4 Bb7 19. b4 Re8 20. Bf2 c4 21. Bc2 a6 22. Rfc1 b5 23. Bd1 Bd8 24. Nf1 Ne4 25. Nd2 Nd6 26. Nf1 f5 27. Be1 Ne4 28. Nd2 Nd6 29. Nf1 Ne4 30. Nd2 Nd6 31. Nf1 { The game is a draw. } 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

[pgn] [Event "casual blitz game"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/LzcC6Qch"]
[Date "2025.07.02"]
[White "Catecan"]
[Black "LeelaRookOdds"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[GameId "LzcC6Qch"]
[UTCDate "2025.07.02"]
[UTCTime "02:34:15"]
[WhiteElo "2082"]
[BlackElo "2000"]
[BlackTitle "BOT"]
[Variant "From Position"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]
[ECO "?"]
[Opening "?"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[FEN "1nbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQk - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. d4 d6 2. f4 f5 3. e3 e6 4. Nf3 h6 5. c3 g5 6. g3 g4 7. Nh4 Kf7 8. Bd3 d5 9. Kf1 h5 10. Bd2 Be7 11. Be1 b6 12. Rg1 c5 13. Qe2 Nf6 14. Rg2 Rg8 15. Kg1 Bb7 16. a3 Qd7 17. Nd2 Nc6 18. Ba6 Ba8 19. Bd3 c4 20. Bc2 b5 21. Nf1 a5 22. Bd1 Na7 23. Qc2 Bc6 24. Kh1 Nc8 25. Kg1 Nd6 26. Kh1 Nc8 27. Kg1 Nd6 28. Kh1 Qd8 29. Kg1 Bd7 30. Kh1 Bc6 31. Kg1 Nd7 32. Kh1 Ne4 33. Kg1 Qa8 34. Kh1 Qd8 35. Kg1 Qa8 36. Kh1 Nb6 37. Kg1 Qb7 38. Kh1 Qa8 39. Kg1 Qb7 40. Kh1 Nd7 41. Kg1 Nd6 42. Kh1 Ne4 43. Kg1 a4 44. Kh1 Ke8 45. Qe2 Kd8 46. Rc1 Kc7 47. Rc2 Qb8 48. Kg1 Kb6 49. Kh1 Ka6 50. Rc1 Kb6 51. Qc2 Ndf6 52. Kg1 Ne8 53. Kh1 N8d6 54. Kg1 Nb7 55. Kh1 Na5 56. Kg1 Nb3 57. Rb1 Nd6 58. Kh1 Ne4 59. Kg1 Nd6 60. Kh1 Bd7 61. Kg1 Na5 62. Kh1 Nc6 63. Rc1 Ne4 64. Kg1 Na5 65. Kh1 Nc6 66. Kg1 Na5 67. Kh1 Nb3 68. Rb1 Na5 69. Kg1 Nb3 70. Kh1 Kb7 71. Kg1 Nd6 72. Kh1 Na5 73. Rc1 Nb3 74. Rb1 Ka6 75. Kg1 Ne4 76. Kh1 Na5 77. Rc1 Nb3 78. Rb1 Nf6 79. Kg1 Na5 80. Rc1 Nc6 81. Kh1 Ne4 82. Kg1 Na5 83. Kh1 Nf6 84. Kg1 Ne4 85. Kh1 { The game is a draw. } 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

Good evening, Mr. Larry Kaufman. I'm afraid I won't be able to catch GM Hikaru Nakamura in this short march.

[pgn] [Event "casual blitz game"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/creeqcTK"]
[Date "2025.07.02"]
[White "Catecan"]
[Black "LeelaRookOdds"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[GameId "creeqcTK"]
[UTCDate "2025.07.02"]
[UTCTime "03:41:16"]
[WhiteElo "2082"]
[BlackElo "2000"]
[BlackTitle "BOT"]
[Variant "From Position"]
[TimeControl "180+2"]
[ECO "?"]
[Opening "?"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[FEN "1nbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQk - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. d4 g6 2. f4 d5 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. e3 c5 5. c3 Qc7 6. Bd3 Nh6 7. Qe2 O-O 8. O-O Ng4 9. Re1 Rd8 10. a3 b6 11. Nbd2 Nd7 12. Ba6 Bxa6 13. Qxa6 c4 14. Qa4 Rc8 15. Qc2 Bh6 16. Nf1 f5 17. Re2 Ngf6 18. g3 Ne4 19. Rg2 Ndf6 20. Bd2 g5 21. Be1 g4 22. Nh4 e6 23. Kh1 Bf8 24. Kg1 Kf7 25. Kh1 Be7 26. Kg1 h5 27. Kh1 Rg8 28. Kg1 Nd6 29. Kh1 Rb8 30. Kg1 Qb7 31. Kh1 a5 32. Kg1 b5 33. Kh1 Qa6 34. Kg1 Rg8 35. Kh1 Nd7 36. Kg1 Nb6 37. Kh1 Nd7 38. Kg1 Nb6 39. Kh1 Qa8 40. Kg1 Bd8 41. Kh1 Be7 42. Kg1 Ke8 43. Kh1 Rg7 44. Kg1 Kf7 45. Kh1 Qc8 46. Kg1 Na4 47. Kh1 Qa8 48. Kg1 Qc8 49. Kh1 Qa8 50. Kg1 Bf6 51. Kh1 Bd8 52. Kg1 Be7 53. Kh1 Bf6 54. Kg1 Qe8 55. Kh1 Qa8 56. Kg1 Qb7 57. Kh1 Be7 58. Kg1 Nb6 59. Kh1 Qa8 60. Kg1 Ke8 61. Kh1 Kf7 62. Kg1 Qg8 63. Kh1 Bf6 64. Kg1 Qe8 65. Kh1 Qg8 66. Kg1 Qe8 67. Kh1 a4 68. Kg1 Nd7 69. Qe2 Qg8 70. Rc1 Ke8 71. Rc2 Kd8 72. Kh1 Ke8 73. Kg1 Nf8 74. Kh1 Bd8 75. Kg1 Rh7 76. Kh1 Bf6 77. Kg1 Be7 78. Kh1 Rg7 79. Kg1 Qh7 80. Kh1 Bf6 81. Kg1 Nd7 82. Kh1 Nb8 83. Kg1 Nc6 84. Kh1 Ne7 85. Kg1 Nc6 86. Kh1 Qg8 87. Kg1 Be7 88. Kh1 Bf6 89. Kg1 Be7 90. Kh1 Kd7 91. Kg1 Ne4 92. Kh1 Nf6 93. Kg1 Ke8 94. Kh1 Nd7 95. Kg1 Bf6 96. Kh1 Kf8 97. Kg1 Na5 98. Kh1 Ke7 99. Kg1 Nb3 100. Kh1 Kf8 101. Kg1 Na5 102. Kh1 Ke7 103. Kg1 Nb3 104. Kh1 Bxh4 105. gxh4 Nf6 106. Bg3 Na1 107. Rc1 Nb3 108. Rc2 Kd7 109. Qe1 Ne4 110. Kg1 Nd6 111. Kh1 Ne4 112. Kg1 Kd6 113. Kh1 Kc7 114. Kg1 Kd6 115. Kh1 Ke7 116. Kg1 Kd7 117. Kh1 Ke8 118. Kg1 Ke7 119. Kh1 Kd8 120. Nd2 Nf6 121. Nf1 Kc8 122. Kg1 Kd7 123. Kh1 Kc7 124. Kg1 Kd7 125. Kh1 { The game is a draw. } 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

Good afternoon, Mr. Larry Kaufman. I have completed my short match with a time control of 3 minutes plus two seconds per move against the robot LeelaRooksOdds. I played 14 games, 11 with White and 3 with Black. My final score was a modest 2.5 in my favor to the robot's 11.5. Far behind GM Hikaru Nakamura, but I believe I can perhaps get close, or even equal, and I'm not sure if I can beat his score of 4.5 to the robot's 9.5. The computer wasn't right; it repeatedly refused to play with the White pieces and me with the Black pieces. During the march, I was very distracted due to the excessive noise around me, but I managed to salvage some of the result with my 5 draws. "Something is something, worse is nothing," as the saying goes.

[pgn][Event "casual bullet game"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/Po4mScGE"]
[Date "2025.07.02"]
[White "Catecan"]
[Black "LeelaRookOdds"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[GameId "Po4mScGE"]
[UTCDate "2025.07.02"]
[UTCTime "20:29:44"]
[WhiteElo "2022"]
[BlackElo "2000"]
[BlackTitle "BOT"]
[Variant "From Position"]
[TimeControl "60+0"]
[ECO "?"]
[Opening "?"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[FEN "1nbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQk - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. d4 f5 2. f4 e6 3. e3 Nf6 4. Nf3 h6 5. c3 g5 6. Bd3 g4 7. Nh4 Kf7 8. g3 Be7 9. O-O d5 10. Bd2 b6 11. Be1 Bb7 12. Qe2 c5 13. Rf2 Nbd7 14. Rg2 c4 15. Bc2 Bd6 16. a3 Qc7 17. Nd2 Rc8 18. Nf1 h5 19. Bd1 Bf8 20. Kh1 Bc6 21. Kg1 b5 22. Kh1 a5 23. Kg1 Nb6 24. Kh1 Nbd7 25. Kg1 Nb6 26. Kh1 Rb8 27. Kg1 Ra8 28. Kh1 Be7 29. Kg1 Kg7 30. Kh1 Bf8 31. Qc2 Nc8 32. Qc1 Nd6 33. Kg1 Nc8 34. Kh1 Nb6 35. Kg1 Qa7 36. Kh1 Be7 37. Kg1 Ne4 38. Kh1 Qc7 39. Kg1 Nd7 40. Kh1 Nb6 41. Kg1 Rg8 42. Kh1 Kf7 43. Kg1 Kg7 44. Kh1 Kf8 45. Kg1 Nf6 46. Kh1 Kf7 47. Kg1 Ne4 48. Kh1 Nf6 49. Kg1 Ra8 50. Kh1 Ne4 51. Kg1 Nf6 52. Kh1 Ng8 53. Kg1 a4 54. Kh1 Nf6 55. Qc2 Rg8 56. Qe2 Ne4 57. Rc1 Ke8 58. Rc2 Kd8 59. Kg1 Kc8 60. Kh1 Kb7 61. Kg1 Nc8 62. Kh1 Ncd6 63. Kg1 Kb6 64. Kh1 Nb7 65. Kg1 Na5 66. Kh1 Nb3 67. Kg1 Bd6 68. Kh1 Qe7 69. Kg1 Bxa3 70. bxa3 Qxa3 71. Ra2 Qc1 72. Qc2 Ra8 73. Kh1 Be8 74. Kg1 Ra7 75. Kh1 Ra8 76. Kg1 Ra7 77. Kh1 Ra8 { The game is a draw. } 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

[/pgn]
[Event "casual bullet game"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/jMNQYPlT"]
[Date "2025.07.02"]
[White "Catecan"]
[Black "LeelaRookOdds"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[GameId "jMNQYPlT"]
[UTCDate "2025.07.02"]
[UTCTime "20:28:07"]
[WhiteElo "2022"]
[BlackElo "2000"]
[BlackTitle "BOT"]
[Variant "From Position"]
[TimeControl "60+0"]
[ECO "?"]
[Opening "?"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[FEN "1nbqkbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQk - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. d4 g6 2. f4 Nf6 3. e3 Bg7 4. Nf3 c5 5. c3 Qc7 6. Bd3 d5 7. Qe2 Bg4 8. O-O O-O 9. Qd1 Nh5 10. Be2 Rc8 11. Ne5 Bxe2 12. Qxe2 Nc6 13. Nf3 Qb6 14. g3 Nf6 15. Rf2 e6 16. Nbd2 Ne7 17. Nf1 Nf5 18. Rg2 Nd6 19. Kh1 c4 20. Qc2 a5 21. a3 Qa6 22. Kg1 b5 23. Bd2 Qb7 24. Be1 Ra8 25. Qc1 a4 26. Kh1 Nfe4 27. Qc2 f6 28. Qe2 Kf7 29. Rc1 Rh8 30. Rc2 h5 31. h4 f5 32. Qd1 Bf8 33. Rce2 Kg7 34. Qc2 Be7 35. Kg1 Nf7 36. Kh1 Nh6 37. Kg1 Nf7 38. Kh1 Nfd6 39. Kg1 Re8 40. Kh1 Rf8 41. Kg1 Ra8 42. Kh1 Re8 43. Kg1 Ra8 44. Kh1 Rf8 45. Kg1 Rh8 46. Kh1 Ra8 47. Kg1 Rh8 48. Kh1 Nf6 49. Kg1 Ra8 50. Kh1 Bd8 51. Kg1 Qc8 52. Kh1 Be7 53. Kg1 Bd8 54. Kh1 Be7 55. Kg1 Qd8 56. Kh1 Qd7 57. Kg1 Qc8 58. Kh1 Qd7 59. Kg1 Qc8 60. Kh1 Qd7 { The game is a draw. } 1/2-1/2[/pgn]

[Father]

Having played a bullet chess match with LeelaQueenOdds (drawn) and a blitz chess match with LeelaKnightOdds (lost 14 to 2), Hikaru completed the trilogy today by playing a blitz (3'2") match with LeelaRookOdds. Despite taking White in eight of the fourteen games ("rook and move" odds), he lost by 9.5 to 4.5 (seven wins for Leela, two for Hikaru, five draws). Although this was noticeably better than his result at knight odds, Hikaru expected the larger handicap to make more of a difference, and was surprised to lose the match, especially by such a score. One factor was that the bot hardware was upgraded from 4090 to 5090 between the matches, but this was probably just a modest help. Although he claimed to be "on tilt" after many losses, both of his wins came near the end, so that cannot be responsible for the result. I don't believe anyone else has made an even or positive score at rook odds at 3'2" or faster against the current net, so it remains an open question as to whether anyone can surpass Hikaru's score under these conditions. The matches do seem to show that although rook odds is larger than knight odds, it is not so much larger as many might have thought.

A break along the way.

It's often important in life's journey to take a break. After having played against the computer LeelaQueenOdds 8,731 times, Catecan and I decided to chat on a full moon night and analyze and evaluate the experience. Furthermore, the perspective to follow deserves special care. The vast majority of games have been played with white pieces and in one-minute bullet time control with no increments. New teams and their steeds grace the landscape. Selfless noblemen and their faithful mounts often accompany each other without realizing it... We wanted to publish this game, which shows us the infinite finiteness of chess.

[pgn][Event "casual bullet game"]
[Site "https://lichess.org/IAH2HqD7"]
[Date "2025.07.07"]
[White "Catecan"]
[Black "LeelaQueenOdds"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[GameId "IAH2HqD7"]
[UTCDate "2025.07.07"]
[UTCTime "16:52:03"]
[WhiteElo "2022"]
[BlackElo "2000"]
[BlackTitle "BOT"]
[Variant "From Position"]
[TimeControl "60+0"]
[ECO "?"]
[Opening "?"]
[Termination "Normal"]
[FEN "rnb1kbnr/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
[SetUp "1"]
[Annotator "lichess.org"]

1. d4 e6 2. f4 Be7 3. e3 g5 4. c3 g4 5. h4 b6 6. g3 Bb7 7. Rh2 a5 8. Bg2 d5 9. a3 Nd7 10. Bf1 Nh6 11. Kf2 O-O 12. Kg2 c5 13. Kh1 Nf6 14. Bd2 Nf5 15. Qe1 a4 16. Rg2 c4 17. Qe2 Ra5 18. Be1 Rb5 19. Ra2 Ra5 20. Nd2 b5 21. Nb1 Kh8 22. Bf2 Nh6 23. Qe1 Raa8 24. Be2 Kg7 25. Bf1 Rae8 26. Ne2 Nf5 27. Kg1 Bd6 28. Qd2 Ne4 29. Qc1 Bc7 30. Ra1 f6 31. Ra2 Ned6 32. Ra1 h5 33. Ra2 Nf7 34. Ra1 e5 35. Ra2 e4 36. Ra1 Nd8 37. Ra2 Nc6 38. Ra1 Na5 39. Ra2 Nb3 40. Qc2 Bc6 41. Kh1 Bd7 42. Kg1 Rg8 43. Kh1 Kf7 44. Kg1 Bd6 45. Kh1 Bc7 46. Kg1 Bd6 47. Kh1 Rg7 48. Kg1 Reg8 49. Kh1 Be7 50. Kg1 Bd6 51. Kh1 Be7 52. Kg1 Na5 53. Kh1 Bd6 54. Kg1 Be7 55. Kh1 Re8 56. Kg1 Rgg8 57. Kh1 Rg7 58. Kg1 Rgg8 59. Kh1 Rh8 60. Kg1 Reg8 61. Kh1 Rb8 62. Kg1 Rbe8 63. Kh1 Rb8 64. Kg1 Rhg8 65. Kh1 Ra8 66. Kg1 Rh8 67. Kh1 Rag8 68. Kg1 Nb3 69. Kh1 Bd6 70. Kg1 Ra8 71. Kh1 Be7 72. Kg1 Nd6 73. Kh1 f5 74. Kg1 Nb7 75. Kh1 N7a5 76. Kg1 Nc6 77. Kh1 Nd8 78. Kg1 Ne6 79. Kh1 Nc7 80. Kg1 Ne8 81. Kh1 Nd6 82. Kg1 Nb7 83. Kh1 N7a5 84. Kg1 Nc6 85. Kh1 Nd8 86. Kg1 Nb7 { The game is a draw. } 1/2-1/2[/pgn]
LeelaQueenOdds Leaderboard
Next update in: 8m 48s
# Player Rating Games Last Game TC
1 Arka50 3069 178 2025-06-20 1+0
2 FeegLood 2982 369 2025-06-25 1+0
3 SuperEasy 2930 454 2025-07-03 8+3
4 verystablegenius69 2852 384 2025-05-07 1+0
5 InvisibleGuest2023 2818 394 2025-06-09 1+0
6 Former_Player 2815 407 2025-06-25 3+2
7 JoanFluvia 2809 745 2025-07-04 2+1
8 wateenellende 2804 154 2025-03-26 1+0
9 Mikulas 2748 597 2025-06-25 2+1
10 VladimirMarkovic 2720 1785 2025-06-25 1+0
11 Hissha 2713 135 2025-05-27 1+10
12 jflup 2708 245 2025-07-06 3+1
13 Phara0h1 2705 1030 2025-06-11 4+0
14 Catecan 2685 8731 2025-07-07 1+0
15 Orichess88 2684 88 2025-04-03 2+3
16 Paulewski 2683 440 2025-07-06 5+0
17 AdmiralHabibi 2680 166 2025-07-07 2+1
18 edgelorde 2679 1927 2025-06-16 1+1
19 FourDWorm 2671 94 2025-06-27 5+3
20 Alex_Muezersky 2663 179 2025-04-05 1+1
21 Lauge1 2663 310 2025-07-07 5+3
22 dauANHbac 2659 74 2025-04-27 1+1
23 smeets 2652 29 2025-04-02 2+1
24 Dobryfen 2590 107 2025-07-07 3+2
25 CatAdams 2565 870 2025-07-07 3+2
26 pozvonochek 2563 187 2025-03-13 1+0
27 turton 2557 836 2025-07-07 4+12
28 jtcoach 2553 185 2025-03-22 3+2
29 gotschi 2549 1395 2025-06-18 2+3
30 pultis12 2531 259 2025-04-02 1+0
31 VTChess 2527 2238 2025-07-07 1+1
32 Oleg_Papayan 2520 153 2025-05-11 2+0
33 FinalSpot 2517 125 2025-03-29 3+2
34 vilius100 2513 248 2025-07-04 3+2
35 arturchix 2510 38 2025-03-27 2+1
36 Andrey_Smaev_1998 2501 222 2025-04-24 7+7
37 Iron_jack 2500 291 2025-06-17 5+2
38 monkeyking123 2495 132 2025-05-04 1+0
39 BlindKungFuMaster 2494 70 2025-07-07 5+3
40 eelke 2487 124 2025-04-17 1+1
41 Kunk 2469 110 2025-06-24 4+0
42 BT_CHESS42 2468 530 2025-07-01 3+2
43 davidb2 2465 127 2025-03-15 1+0
44 Omnivor 2462 30 2025-05-14 5+5
45 CoolerMove 2455 75 2025-06-24 10+10
46 MindBoggle 2453 77 2025-07-06 8+9
47 ITakeTrenPassant 2452 200 2025-03-27 3+1