obsidian stupid analysis in obvious won positions

[Uri Blass]

Score goes down relative to more than +8 at small depth and obsidian gives stupid moves like 1.e3 and 2.Nh3 that are of course winning but I do not consider to be best.

It may not reduce elo but it is a behaviour that I do not like.

[d]1nb1kbn1/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQ - 0 1

Obsidian_dev16.14SE_AVX2:
1 00:00 125 141k +8.16 e2-e3
2 00:00 391 391k +8.14 c2-c3 Ke8-d8
3 00:00 2k 1,521k +8.16 c2-c3 a7-a6 e2-e3
4 00:00 4k 3,989k +8.15 c2-c3 d7-d6 e2-e3 Ke8-d8
5 00:00 7k 3,663k +8.09 c2-c3 d7-d6 e2-e3 Ke8-d8 f2-f3
6 00:00 18k 4,509k +8.02 c2-c3 d7-d6 Ng1-f3 e7-e5 h2-h4 Bc8-f5
7 00:00 113k 5,656k +7.75 e2-e3 Ng8-f6 Bf1-c4 e7-e6 f2-f3 g7-g5 c2-c3
8 00:00 207k 5,444k +7.60 e2-e3 Ng8-f6 Bf1-b5 Nb8-c6 Ng1-f3 Nf6-e4 Nb1-a3
9 00:00 437k 5,269k +7.54 e2-e3 Ng8-f6 Bf1-b5 Nb8-c6 Ng1-f3 g7-g5 Qd1-e2 Nc6-b4 d2-d4 Nf6-e4
10 00:00 852k 5,324k +7.48 e2-e3 Ng8-f6 Ng1-f3 Nb8-c6 Nf3-e5 g7-g5 d2-d4 Nc6-b4 Bf1-c4 Nf6-d5 Bc4-b5
11 00:00 2,115k 5,288k +7.28 e2-e3 Nb8-c6 Ng1-f3 Ng8-f6 Nf3-g5 Nf6-g4 Qd1xg4 e7-e6 Qg4-c4 Nc6-b4
12 00:00 3,121k 5,149k +7.23 e2-e3 Nb8-c6 Bf1-d3 Ng8-f6 Nb1-a3 Nf6-g4 Qd1-e2 Ng4xf2 Qe2-f1 Nc6-e5
13 00:00 4,775k 5,021k +7.15 e2-e3 Nb8-c6 c2-c3 Ng8-f6 Qd1-a4 e7-e6 Ng1-f3 g7-g5 Qa4-b5 Nc6-b4 c3xb4 c7-c6
14 00:01 7,644k 4,970k +7.05 e2-e3 Nb8-c6 Bf1-b5 Ng8-f6 c2-c4 Nf6-g4 Ng1-h3 Ng4xf2 Nh3xf2 Nc6-d4 Qd1-a4 e7-e5
15 00:06 30,299k 4,742k +6.64 c2-c3 Ng8-f6 Qd1-a4 Nb8-c6 f2-f3 g7-g5 Ng1-h3 g5-g4 Nh3-g5 Nc6-d4 Ke1-d1 g4xf3 e2xf3
16 00:10 47,605k 4,663k +6.40 c2-c3 Ng8-f6 Qd1-a4 Nb8-c6 f2-f3 g7-g5 g2-g3 g5-g4 f3-f4 e7-e5 Bf1-g2 Nc6-d4 Qa4-c4 Nf6-e4 Bg2xe4
17 00:19 86,445k 4,488k +6.07 c2-c3 Ng8-f6 e2-e3 Nb8-c6 Ng1-h3 Nf6-e4 Qd1-a4 Ne4xf2 Nh3xf2 e7-e6 Qa4-h4 Bf8-a3 Qh4-d8+ Ke8xd8 b2xa3 Kd8-e8 Nf2-d3 Nc6-b4 Nd3xb4
18 00:26 118,284k 4,432k +6.01 c2-c3 Ng8-f6 e2-e3 Nb8-c6 Ng1-h3 Nf6-e4 Qd1-h5 Ne4xf2 Nh3xf2 Nc6-b4 c3xb4 a7-a5 b4-b5 g7-g5 Qh5-h6 Bf8-g7 a2-a3 Bg7xb2 Qh6-f8+ Ke8xf8 Ra1-a2 c7-c5
19 00:37 161,617k 4,362k +5.88 e2-e3 Ng8-f6 Ng1-h3 Nb8-c6 Bf1-d3 Nf6-g4 O-O Ng4xe3 f2xe3 Nc6-d4 Qd1-h5 d7-d6 Qh5-g4 Bc8xg4 e3xd4 Bg4-e2 Kg1-h1
20 00:49 209,038k 4,251k +5.81 e2-e3 Ng8-f6 Ng1-h3 Nb8-c6 Bf1-d3 Nf6-g4 Qd1xg4 Nc6-e5 Qg4-e4 Ne5xd3+ c2xd3 e7-e5 Nb1-c3 Bf8-a3 Ke1-f1 Ba3xb2 Qe4xe5+ Ke8-d8 Qe5-e8+ Kd8xe8 Ra1-b1 Ke8-e7 Kf1-g1
21 01:17 317,448k 4,116k +5.74 e2-e3 Ng8-f6 Ng1-h3 Nb8-c6 Qd1-f3 Nc6-b4 c2-c3 Nf6-d5 Nh3-g5 Nb4-c2+ Ke1-e2 Nd5xc3+ Nb1xc3 Nc2-d4+ e3xd4 d7-d5 Qf3xf7+ Ke8-d8 Qf7-e8+ Kd8xe8 Ng5-f7 Bc8-g4+ Ke2-e1
22 01:33 380,446k 4,076k +5.76 e2-e3 Ng8-f6 Ng1-h3 Nb8-c6 Nb1-a3 Nf6-d5 Nh3-g5 Nd5xe3 Qd1-f3 f7-f6 f2xe3 Nc6-d4 Qf3-h5+ g7-g6 Qh5xg6+ h7xg6 Ng5-f7 Nd4-f3+ g2xf3 c7-c6 Nf7-h8 Ke8-d8
23 02:14 538,703k 3,994k +5.72 e2-e3 Ng8-f6 Ng1-h3 Nb8-c6 Nb1-a3 Nf6-d5 Nh3-g5 Nd5xe3 Qd1-f3 f7-f6 f2xe3 Nc6-d4 e3xd4 f6xg5 Qf3-f7+ Ke8xf7 Na3-b5 Kf7-g6 Nb5-d6 e7-e5 d4xe5 c7-c5 c2-c4 Kg6-h5
24 03:24 790,117k 3,859k +5.87 e2-e3 Ng8-f6 Ng1-h3 Nb8-c6 Nh3-g5 Nc6-b4 Qd1-f3 Nb4xc2+ Ke1-d1 Nc2xe3+ d2xe3 h7-h6 Qf3-f4 Ke8-d8 Ng5-h3 d7-d6 Qf4-f5 Nf6-e4 Qf5-d7+ Bc8xd7 f2-f4 Bd7-a4+ Kd1-e1 Ba4-d1 Rh1-g1 Ne4-c5 Ke1-d2 Nc5-e4+ Kd2xd1 Ne4-c3+
25 04:04 938,326k 3,835k +5.92 e2-e3 Ng8-f6 Ng1-h3 Nb8-c6 Nb1-c3 Nc6-d4 Nc3-b5 Nf6-e4 e3xd4 e7-e5 Qd1-h5 Bf8-b4 c2-c3 e5xd4 c3xb4 a7-a5 Qh5-e5+ Ke8-d8 Nh3-g5 Ne4xg5 Qe5-e8+ Kd8xe8 d2-d3 Ng5-f3+ g2xf3
26 04:58 1,113,472k 3,731k +5.90 e2-e3 Ng8-f6 Ng1-h3 Nb8-c6 Nh3-g5 Nc6-d4 e3xd4 e7-e6 Nb1-c3 Bf8-b4 Nc3-b5 Nf6-e4 Qd1-f3 Ne4xg5 Nb5xc7+ Ke8-d8 Nc7-a8 Ng5xf3+ g2xf3 b7-b5 h2-h3 Bc8-b7 Bf1-g2 Bb7xa8 O-O

[Uri Blass]

Another example.

Mate the royal couple
Obsidian suggest stupid lines and does not see mate score.

Exqamples for bad line

3 00:00 576 576k +5.04 c2-c3 Qd8-d4 c3xd4

Why does black sacrifice the queen

9 00:00 309k 4,906k +5.60 d2-d3 Qd8-a5+ Nb1-c3 Qa5xc3+ Bc1-d2 Qc3xb2 e2-e4 Qb2xa1 Bd2-c1 Qa1-c3+ Ke1-e2

black sacrifice the queen by Qa5xc3+ and white does not capture it in the pv
Everything is winning but it is not a reason to play random moves

[d]3qk3/8/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQ - 0 1


Obsidian_dev16.14SE_AVX2:
1 00:00 133 133k +4.28 d2-d4
2 00:00 394 395k +5.43 b2-b3 Qd8-a5
3 00:00 576 576k +5.04 c2-c3 Qd8-d4 c3xd4
4 00:00 5k 5,244k +4.68 c2-c4 Ke8-e7 e2-e4 Qd8-d4
5 00:00 12k 3,965k +5.05 c2-c4 Ke8-e7 Qd1-a4 Ke7-d6
6 00:00 55k 4,601k +5.22 d2-d3 Qd8-b6 h2-h4 Qb6-c5 Rh1-h3
7 00:00 81k 5,071k +5.30 d2-d3 Qd8-b6 h2-h4 Ke8-d7 e2-e4 Kd7-c8 Rh1-h2 Kc8-c7
8 00:00 118k 5,371k +5.35 d2-d3 Qd8-b6 h2-h4 Qb6-c7 e2-e4 Ke8-d7 Nb1-c3 Kd7-e6
9 00:00 309k 4,906k +5.60 d2-d3 Qd8-a5+ Nb1-c3 Qa5xc3+ Bc1-d2 Qc3xb2 e2-e4 Qb2xa1 Bd2-c1 Qa1-c3+ Ke1-e2
10 00:02 8,070k 3,787k +5.48 Nb1-c3 Qd8-d3 h2-h4 Ke8-d7 Ng1-f3 Kd7-c7 b2-b4 Kc7-c6 Bc1-a3 Qd3-f5 d2-d3
11 00:03 11,990k 3,781k +5.46 d2-d3 Qd8-a5+ Nb1-c3 Qa5xc3+ Qd1-d2 Qc3-d4 e2-e3 Qd4-c3 b2-b4 Ke8-d7 f2-f3 Kd7-e6 f3-f4 Qc3xd2+ Bc1xd2 Ke6-f5
12 00:03 12,314k 3,787k +5.42 d2-d3 Qd8-d4 h2-h4 Ke8-e7 Nb1-c3 Qd4-e3 Bc1-d2 Ke7-e6 Ng1-f3 Ke6-f6 b2-b4 Kf6-f5 Nf3-g1 Qe3-d4
13 00:03 14,536k 3,801k +5.43 d2-d3 Qd8-a5+ b2-b4 Qa5xb4+ c2-c3 Qb4-b3 e2-e3 Qb3xd1+ Ke1xd1 Ke8-d7 f2-f4 Kd7-e7
14 00:13 51,529k 3,685k +5.40 d2-d3 Qd8-a5+ Qd1-d2 Qa5-g5 e2-e3 Qg5-h5 f2-f3 Qh5-h4+ g2-g3 Qh4-b4 Nb1-c3 Qb4-b6 h2-h4 Qb6-b8
15 00:15 58,399k 3,672k +5.35 d2-d3 Qd8-d4 Qd1-d2 Qd4xf2+ Ke1xf2 Ke8-d7 Kf2-e3 Kd7-c7 Qd2-a5+ Kc7-c6 g2-g3 Kc6-d7 Qa5-a6 Kd7-d8
16 00:19 70,263k 3,671k +5.37 d2-d3 Qd8-d4 Qd1-d2 Qd4xb2 Ng1-f3 Qb2xc1+ Qd2xc1 Ke8-e7 Qc1-g5+ Ke7-e6 Nf3-g1 Ke6-d7 Qg5-d5+ Kd7-c8 Qd5-c5+ Kc8-b7 Qc5-d6 Kb7-a8
17 03:28 694,415k 3,327k +5.95 Nb1-c3 Qd8-d7 e2-e3 Qd7-f7 Qd1-h5 Qf7xh5 g2-g4 Qh5xg4 Nc3-e2 Ke8-f7 h2-h4 Qg4-c4 d2-d3 Qc4xc2 f2-f3 Kf7-g6 Ne2-c3
18 04:12 855,723k 3,385k +5.97 Nb1-c3 Qd8-f6 e2-e3 Qf6xf2+ Ke1xf2 Ke8-e7 e3-e4 Ke7-f6 Qd1-h5 Kf6-e6 Kf2-e1 Ke6-e7 Qh5-h7+ Ke7-f8 b2-b4 Kf8-e8
19 09:05 1,961,205k 3,592k +6.31 d2-d3 Ke8-d7 Qd1-d2 Kd7-e6 Nb1-c3 Qd8-f6 Qd2-e3+ Ke6-f7 Ng1-f3 Qf6xf3 Qe3-e8+ Kf7-f6 Qe8-f7+ Kf6xf7 Bc1-e3 Kf7-e6 Nc3-d1 Ke6-e5 Ra1-c1
20 09:09 1,975,769k 3,594k +6.31 d2-d3 Ke8-d7 Qd1-d2 Kd7-e6 Nb1-c3 Qd8-f6 Qd2-e3+ Ke6-f7 Ng1-f3 Qf6xf3 Qe3-e7+ Kf7xe7 Nc3-d1 Qf3-e3 Bc1-d2 Ke7-d7 Ra1-b1 Kd7-e6 Rb1-c1 Ke6-e7 b2-b4 Ke7-e6 c2-c4 Ke6-e5 c4-c5 Ke5-d5
21 14:45 3,221,787k 3,637k +6.25 d2-d3 Ke8-d7 Qd1-d2 Kd7-e6 Nb1-c3 Qd8-f6 Qd2-e3+ Ke6-f7 Ng1-f3 Qf6xf3 Qe3-e7+ Kf7xe7 Bc1-g5+ Ke7-e8 Bg5-d2 Qf3-e3 g2-g3 Qe3-b6 h2-h4 Qb6-b7 e2-e3 Ke8-d7 d3-d4 Qb7xb2
22 17:31 3,859,140k 3,671k +6.25 d2-d3 Ke8-d7 Nb1-c3 Kd7-e6 Qd1-d2 Qd8-f6 Qd2-e3+ Qf6-e5 Qe3-b6+ Qe5-d6 Ng1-f3 Qd6xb6 Nf3-d2 Qb6-e3 a2-a3 Ke6-e5 Ra1-a2 Ke5-f5 Nc3-d1 Kf5-e6 a3-a4 Ke6-e5 b2-b4
23 19:18 4,270,706k 3,686k +6.33 d2-d3 Ke8-d7 Nb1-c3 Kd7-e6 Qd1-d2 Qd8-f6 Qd2-e3+ Ke6-d7 Bc1-d2 Qf6-e7 Qe3-h3+ Qe7-e6 Qh3-h7+ Kd7-d6 Qh7-c7+ Kd6xc7 h2-h4 Qe6-e3 g2-g4 Kc7-d7 Ng1-h3 Qe3-a7 Nh3-g5 Qa7-b7 Ng5-f7 Kd7-e7
24 21:21 4,706,842k 3,672k +6.36 d2-d3 Ke8-d7 Nb1-c3 Qd8-f6 Qd1-d2 Qf6-e5 Qd2-h6 Qe5-d6 Qh6-g5 Qd6-e7 Qg5-d5+ Qe7-d6 Qd5-f7+ Qd6-e7 Ng1-f3 Qe7xf7 Rh1-g1 Qf7-e6 e2-e3 Qe6-b3 Bc1-d2 Qb3xc2 Nf3-e5+ Kd7-c8 Nc3-d1 Qc2-c3

[cc2150dx]

Kind of reminds me of the old Lc0. It would sacrifice pieces and still end up winning the game.
OTOH Gabe has to fix this.

[maad59]

It is illogical and bad to give two odd positions with a million winning possibilities to describe the analysis of one of the best engines as STUPID.
Obsidian is a magnificent engine in playing and analysis and exceeds other engines.
I do not think that any real chess player will take your words seriously.

[Uri Blass]

It is illogical and bad to give two odd positions with a million winning possibilities to describe the analysis of one of the best engines as STUPID.
Obsidian is a magnificent engine in playing and analysis and exceeds other engines.
I do not think that any real chess player will take your words seriously.

I disagree

I consider myself as a sertious chess player and I think analysis of obvious chess winning positions is also interesting.
If people want to learn how to beat LeelaQueenOdds then I guess Obsidian is a bad choice to use to analyze their games because it is going to suggest stupid lines and not lines that help to improve the position.

When I see this type of anslysis I feel that I cannot trust the engine also in analysis of games because there are cases when I get in games winning poositions that I do not know how to win(even if not positions with queen advantage) and I feel I cannot trust obsidian because maybe it is going to suggest some random winning move instead of the best winning move to improve the position.

Choosing a wrong winning move may not cost elo for engines but clearly can cost elo for humans.