CODA now has a released page.

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AndrewGrant
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Re: CODA now has a released page.

Post by AndrewGrant »

jasper.sinclair wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2026 10:46 pm But as Chris states above, it's completely clear there's no verbatim code copying.
So what's the issue?
Talkchess seems to fail to understand that even if you don't copy-paste chunks of code, you can still have a derived work of a GPLv3 project. If I line-by-line rewrite an engine in a different language, I am not magically free of the license obligations of said engine. What Coda has done is illegally consumed MIT/GPLv3/AGPLv3 content to produce a derivative work, and then 1) re-licensed it ( which he has no authority to do ), and 2) distributed it without proper notice to the source material.

Under talkchess' legal expertise, I should direct Chess.com to rewrite Stockfish in Rust. When we are done, we will have an identical engine, yet somehow "magically" be free of license constraints. Then we can proceed to improve Stockfish in tandem, and market ourselves as the #1 engine. How "exciting".
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Graham Banks
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Re: CODA now has a released page.

Post by Graham Banks »

AndrewGrant wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2026 1:03 am
jasper.sinclair wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2026 10:46 pm But as Chris states above, it's completely clear there's no verbatim code copying.
So what's the issue?
Talkchess seems to fail to understand that even if you don't copy-paste chunks of code, you can still have a derived work of a GPLv3 project. If I line-by-line rewrite an engine in a different language, I am not magically free of the license obligations of said engine. What Coda has done is illegally consumed MIT/GPLv3/AGPLv3 content to produce a derivative work, and then 1) re-licensed it ( which he has no authority to do ), and 2) distributed it without proper notice to the source material.

Under talkchess' legal expertise, I should direct Chess.com to rewrite Stockfish in Rust. When we are done, we will have an identical engine, yet somehow "magically" be free of license constraints. Then we can proceed to improve Stockfish in tandem, and market ourselves as the #1 engine. How "exciting".
When others take ideas from open source engines without copy/pasting chunks of code, isn't that exactly the same, as long as they give credit where due?
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Re: CODA now has a released page.

Post by adamtwiss »

AndrewGrant wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2026 1:03 am What Coda has done is illegally consumed MIT/GPLv3/AGPLv3 content to produce a derivative work, and then 1) re-licensed it ( which he has no authority to do ), and 2) distributed it without proper notice to the source material.
I'm here to have fun building a genuinely strong engine and to help push the field forward — and to do that in a way that adds to this community, credits people where it's due, and respects copyright/licensing. Everything I build on this project, I want to share back.

To get there, my Claude bots and I have studied a lot of engines to learn what good looks like - but let's be honest, most of us have looked at Stockfish's source at some point. That on its own doesn't make everything downstream a derived work.

If I've got something wrong on licensing or attribution, tell me and I'll review and fix it — I'd genuinely rather get that right.

Agentic coding and AI tooling open up real new opportunities and real new questions, and that isn't going away. I'd rather help work out how to do it responsibly and well, in the open, than pretend it isn't here.
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Re: CODA now has a released page.

Post by AndrewGrant »

Graham Banks wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2026 1:50 am
AndrewGrant wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2026 1:03 am
jasper.sinclair wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2026 10:46 pm But as Chris states above, it's completely clear there's no verbatim code copying.
So what's the issue?
Talkchess seems to fail to understand that even if you don't copy-paste chunks of code, you can still have a derived work of a GPLv3 project. If I line-by-line rewrite an engine in a different language, I am not magically free of the license obligations of said engine. What Coda has done is illegally consumed MIT/GPLv3/AGPLv3 content to produce a derivative work, and then 1) re-licensed it ( which he has no authority to do ), and 2) distributed it without proper notice to the source material.

Under talkchess' legal expertise, I should direct Chess.com to rewrite Stockfish in Rust. When we are done, we will have an identical engine, yet somehow "magically" be free of license constraints. Then we can proceed to improve Stockfish in tandem, and market ourselves as the #1 engine. How "exciting".
When others take ideas from open source engines without copy/pasting chunks of code, isn't that exactly the same, as long as they give credit where due?
It is not the same. The difference is a human vs an LLM.
Some even argue that even a human cannot view an open-source engine without incurring such obligations.
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chrisw
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Re: CODA now has a released page.

Post by chrisw »

AndrewGrant wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2026 1:03 am
jasper.sinclair wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2026 10:46 pm But as Chris states above, it's completely clear there's no verbatim code copying.
So what's the issue?
Talkchess seems to fail to understand that even if you don't copy-paste chunks of code, you can still have a derived work of a GPLv3 project. If I line-by-line rewrite an engine in a different language, I am not magically free of the license obligations of said engine. What Coda has done is illegally consumed MIT/GPLv3/AGPLv3 content to produce a derivative work, and then 1) re-licensed it ( which he has no authority to do ), and 2) distributed it without proper notice to the source material.

Under talkchess' legal expertise, I should direct Chess.com to rewrite Stockfish in Rust. When we are done, we will have an identical engine, yet somehow "magically" be free of license constraints. Then we can proceed to improve Stockfish in tandem, and market ourselves as the #1 engine. How "exciting".
Nonsense, biased, affected, extremist, wild nonsense. CODA has studied the ideas contained with the source codes of twenty or thirty top engines, reimplemented the ideas in LLM generated, inserted placeholder constants for weights and biases, tuned, tested, accepted idea or rejected it, cycle repeat until very strong engine results.
Your entire case (using insult words, strongly against the charter here, words like steal, flagrantly infringes, being a non-real programmer, honour failure, being a clone, theft, fraud, and deception) is based on the idea that the LLM is "copying" (it isn't, that's not how LLM's work), that the programmer has been dishonest (he hasn't, he's been completely upfront) and he has credited every engine there is, and used the standard GPL, no different to anyone else, more honest if anything.
You're wrong, it's not acceptable to be making accusations against engine authors that are legally dubious and unsustainable. Apologise and STFU.
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Ras
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Re: CODA now has a released page.

Post by Ras »

Detail analysis from Andrew pending (issues with Reckless and Viridithas).

The much bigger issue is that clear attribution is lacking. You can include e.g. MIT licenced code in a GPLv3 project... but the included code itself stays under MIT licence. You cannot remove the MIT licence from that code and just relicence it to GPLv3. If you draw in verbatim code, or (as Andrew pointed out correctly) directly translated code, that's a derivation. And it needs attribution. Not just generic references.

I don't see how this would work if this engine effectively puts code from other engines all over the place. In other words, this looks like a complete licence mess.
chrisw wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2026 10:30 amBut this is nonsense, LLMs do not verbatim copy.
They can, and they do. There were even lawsuits over that: https://raue.com/en/news/industries/med ... st-openai/. Simple prompting would directly reproduce the song texts.
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chrisw
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Re: CODA now has a released page.

Post by chrisw »

Ras wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2026 9:26 am Detail analysis from Andrew pending (issues with Reckless and Viridithas).

The much bigger issue is that clear attribution is lacking. You can include e.g. MIT licenced code in a GPLv3 project... but the included code itself stays under MIT licence. You cannot remove the MIT licence from that code and just relicence it to GPLv3. If you draw in verbatim code, or (as Andrew pointed out correctly) directly translated code, that's a derivation. And it needs attribution. Not just generic references.

I don't see how this would work if this engine effectively puts code from other engines all over the place. In other words, this looks like a complete licence mess.
chrisw wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2026 10:30 amBut this is nonsense, LLMs do not verbatim copy.
They can, and they do. There were even lawsuits over that: https://raue.com/en/news/industries/med ... st-openai/. Simple prompting would directly reproduce the song texts.
Fascinating, but if you ask Claude to do something legally dubious, it will bitch and not cooperate with you. The LLM doesn’t direct reproduce and if it did it’s been protected against at Anthropic.

I tried just now with this test prompt:

Can you take the LMR code from Stockfish chess engine, verbatim copy, translate it to Rust so I can publish it in my own engine?


Response:

I can’t do the verbatim part, for two reasons worth separating:

Licensing. Stockfish is GPL-3. A line-by-line translation to Rust is a derivative work, not a clean reimplementation — so publishing it would obligate you to license your entire engine under GPL-3 and provide source. That’s fine if you want GPL-3, but it’s usually not what people mean by “my own engine.”

Reproduction. I won’t paste Stockfish source verbatim regardless of the target language.

What I can do: LMR as a technique isn’t copyrightable — only the specific expression is. So I can explain how late move reductions work (reduce depth for moves searched late in a well-ordered move list, since they’re unlikely to be best; re-search at full depth if the reduced search beats alpha) and help you write an original Rust implementation from first principles, tuned to your engine’s own move ordering and search structure. That code is yours to license however you like.

A typical original design has: a precomputed [depth][move_number] log-based reduction table, then adjustments based on things like whether the node is PV, whether the move is a capture/killer, history score, whether you’re in check, and improving/non-improving eval trends. The exact adjustment set is where engines differ — and where you’d want your own, since blindly copying Stockfish’s constants tends to underperform anyway when the surrounding search doesn’t match.

Want me to sketch that out for your engine? It’d help to know how your search is structured (do you have history heuristics, a PV/non-PV split, staged move generation?).
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Ras
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Re: CODA now has a released page.

Post by Ras »

chrisw wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2026 10:02 amFascinating, but if you ask Claude to do something legally dubious, it will bitch and not cooperate with you.
So, we have established that LLMs can reproduce code. See the lawsuit. They are technically capable of that. But if you ask Claude in such an obvious way, it will ofc refuse. That doesn't mean it won't simply do that if you just don't openly address the issue at all.

Provenance is a major issue for AI supported coding. You don't even know if it copies from somewhere, and if so, from where.
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chessica
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Re: CODA now has a released page.

Post by chessica »

Code: Select all

 $ cd desktop
~/Desktop $ cd coda
~/Desktop/coda $ cd coda
~/Desktop/coda/coda $ make
Downloading NNUE net from https://github.com/adamtwiss/coda/releases/download/v0.7.0-nets/net-E161C665.nnue...
Downloaded net-E161C665.nnue
CODA_EVALFILE=C:/Users/Privat/Desktop/coda/coda/net-E161C665.nnue cargo rustc --release --features embedded-net -- --emit link=coda.exe
   Compiling proc-macro2 v1.0.106
   Compiling quote v1.0.45
   Compiling unicode-ident v1.0.24
   Compiling autocfg v1.5.0
   Compiling windows-link v0.2.1
   Compiling arrayvec v0.7.6
   Compiling bitflags v2.11.0
   Compiling utf8parse v0.2.2
   Compiling once_cell_polyfill v1.70.2
   Compiling anstyle v1.0.14
   Compiling is_terminal_polyfill v1.70.2
   Compiling thiserror v2.0.18
   Compiling windows-sys v0.61.2
   Compiling anstyle-parse v1.0.0
   Compiling colorchoice v1.0.5
   Compiling once_cell v1.21.4
   Compiling heck v0.5.0
   Compiling libc v0.2.183
   Compiling strsim v0.11.1
   Compiling tracing-core v0.1.36
   Compiling clap_lex v1.1.0
   Compiling pin-project-lite v0.2.17
   Compiling memchr v2.8.2
   Compiling byteorder v1.5.0
   Compiling rustc-hash v2.1.1
   Compiling num-traits v0.2.19
   Compiling coda v0.9.0 (C:\Users\Privat\Desktop\coda\coda)
   Compiling circular v0.3.0
   Compiling anstyle-query v1.1.5
   Compiling anstyle-wincon v3.0.11
   Compiling anstream v1.0.0
   Compiling clap_builder v4.6.0
   Compiling syn v2.0.117
   Compiling btoi v0.5.0
   Compiling shakmaty v0.30.0
   Compiling shakmaty v0.28.0
   Compiling thiserror-impl v2.0.18
   Compiling tracing-attributes v0.1.31
   Compiling clap_derive v4.6.1
   Compiling tracing v0.1.44
   Compiling sfbinpack v0.6.2
   Compiling clap v4.6.1
   Compiling pgn-reader v0.27.0
   Compiling shakmaty-syzygy v0.28.0
    Finished `release` profile [optimized] target(s) in 29.46s
~/Desktop/coda/coda $
chessica
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Re: CODA now has a released page.

Post by chessica »

Ras wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2026 10:16 am
chrisw wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2026 10:02 amFascinating, but if you ask Claude to do something legally dubious, it will bitch and not cooperate with you.
So, we have established that LLMs can reproduce code. See the lawsuit. They are technically capable of that. But if you ask Claude in such an obvious way, it will ofc refuse. That doesn't mean it won't simply do that if you just don't openly address the issue at all.

Provenance is a major issue for AI supported coding. You don't even know if it copies from somewhere, and if so, from where.
Yes, that's how it is, and we can't change it anymore. If you relinquish control, others take over. We no longer have any say in Germany or the EU. The devil has taken over.