Two knights endgame

[Tony Thomas]

Wouldnt it be a draw by 50 move rule?

[Uri Blass]

Can you mate the black king with two knights
The position is already draw no matter what you play....

No it isn't... KNN vs KP is a win for the KNN in many positions. In the given position, Kf4 is a mate in 55 as follows:

1. Kf4! Kf7 2. Nd4! Ke7! 3. Ke5! f4! 4. Ngf5+! Kd7! 5. Nf3! Kc6!
6. Kd4! Kb5! 7. Ne7! Kb4 8. Nc6+! Kb5! 9. Kd5! Ka6 10. Ncd4! Kb7!
11. Nb5! Kb6! 12. Nd6! Kc7! 13. Nc4! Kd7! 14. Nb6+! Kc7! 15. Kc5!
Kb7! 16. Nd5! Ka6 17. Nc7+ Kb7! 18. Nb5! Kc8! 19. Kc6! Kd8! 20. Nbd4!
Ke7! 21. Kc7! Kf7! 22. Kd6! Ke8! 23. Nc6! Kf8! 24. Ke5 Kf7! 25. Kf5!
Kf8! 26. Kf6! Ke8! 27. Ke6! Kf8 28. Nd8 Kg8! 29. Nf7 Kg7! 30. Nd6!
Kg6! 31. Ke5! Kg7! 32. Kf5! Kh7! 33. Kf6! Kh6! 34. Nf7+ Kh5 35. N7e5!
Kh6 36. Kf7 Kh5! 37. Ke7 Kh6 38. Kf6! Kh5! 39. Kf5! Kh6 40. Nd7!
Kg7! 41. Ke6! Kg8! 42. Ke7! Kh8! 43. Kf7! Kh7 44. Nf8+ Kh6! 45. Kf6!
Kh5 46. Kf5! Kh6 47. Ne6! Kh5! 48. Ng7+! Kh6 49. Kf6! Kh7 50. Nf5!
Kg8! 51. Ke7! Kh7 52. Kf7! Kh8 53. Ng5! f3 54. Ne7 f2 55. Ng6#

I do not have correct tablebases so I do not know if it is a mate in 55 or a draw but in your line 51...Kh8
is better and leads to 50 move rule draw.

Uri

[Jack Lad]

Wouldnt it be a draw by 50 move rule?

Very good question which I overlooked! However I think white can still win by forcing black to move the pawn at the right time but this means the win now takes 57 moves instead of 55 as suggested by the EGTB which would allow black to draw by the 50 move rule.

I am not absolutely certain about this though and black still may be able to avoid being forced to move the pawn in some other variations which would allow the 50 move rule draw.

Perhaps we need to read this first inorder to find out.

[Dr.Wael Deeb]

Wouldnt it be a draw by 50 move rule?

Very good question which I overlooked! However I think white can still win by forcing black to move the pawn at the right time but this means the win now takes 57 moves instead of 55 as suggested by the EGTB which would allow black to draw by the 50 move rule.

I am not absolutely certain about this though and black still may be able to avoid being forced to move the pawn in some other variations which would allow the 50 move rule draw.

Perhaps we need to read this first inorder to find out.

It's a dead draw position if it's played perfectly from both sides

[Terry McCracken]

Wouldnt it be a draw by 50 move rule?

Very good question which I overlooked! However I think white can still win by forcing black to move the pawn at the right time but this means the win now takes 57 moves instead of 55 as suggested by the EGTB which would allow black to draw by the 50 move rule.

I am not absolutely certain about this though and black still may be able to avoid being forced to move the pawn in some other variations which would allow the 50 move rule draw.

Perhaps we need to read this first inorder to find out.

It's a dead draw position if it's played perfectly from both sides

It isn't a draw as the Black pawn must move. The 50 move rule won't be violated.

[Jack Lad]

Wouldnt it be a draw by 50 move rule?

Very good question which I overlooked! However I think white can still win by forcing black to move the pawn at the right time but this means the win now takes 57 moves instead of 55 as suggested by the EGTB which would allow black to draw by the 50 move rule.

I am not absolutely certain about this though and black still may be able to avoid being forced to move the pawn in some other variations which would allow the 50 move rule draw.

Perhaps we need to read this first inorder to find out.

It's a dead draw position if it's played perfectly from both sides

It isn't a draw as the Black pawn must move. The 50 move rule won't be violated.

I agree but it is very difficult to find a variation where the pawn is forced to move inorder to avoid the 50 move rule.

[Patatov]

I'm not sure about KNN vs KP but they are a few exceptions to the 50 moves rules by Fide. Some endings have been extended to 75 moves or even longer.

[Jack Lad]

I'm not sure about KNN vs KP but they are a few exceptions to the 50 moves rules by Fide. Some endings have been extended to 75 moves or even longer.

In 1992 the rule was changed back to fifty moves for all positions.

[BBauer]

This looks like a win.
03. ... f4
53. ... f3
So black cannot claim a draw.

BTW. I have always appreciated this nice output from crafty,
but now I cannot get it. Crafty21.5 doesn't support tabelbases for me.
Compiling crafty20.14 on 64-bit linux system gives a lot of warnings and I do not know which make I should choose. (I could create an executable)

regards
Bernhard

[Uri Blass]

This looks like a win.
03. ... f4
53. ... f3
So black cannot claim a draw.

BTW. I have always appreciated this nice output from crafty,
but now I cannot get it. Crafty21.5 doesn't support tabelbases for me.
Compiling crafty20.14 on 64-bit linux system gives a lot of warnings and I do not know which make I should choose. (I could create an executable)

regards
Bernhard

After 51...Kh8 that is not in the line of Crafty black can play not with the pawn in move 53 and claim a draw.

Maybe white can improve earlier but it is not clear to me.

Uri